An FT2 Sockpuppet?, It quacks like a duck Options

[tarantino]

Between 17 October 2005 and 16 May 2006 the sockpuppet TBP made 185 edits, all in relation to animals, sex, animal sex or Neuro-linguistic programming. There is perhaps only one other editor on enwiki with similar tastes.

TBP's career highlights -
Started the article on Kenneth Pinyan, AKA Mr Hands, a man notable for dying in an unusual way.

Started the article on Hani Miletski, a pioneer in the study of beastiality.

Started the article on Emotion in animals.

Edited the article Edgeplay. Later, FT2 consulted current persona non grata Taxwoman on the subject.

Edit warred on Neuro-linguistic programming and sparred with HeadleyDown on Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming.

HeadleyDown. I trained in NLP under John Seymour and Joseph O'Connor, the first two major UK trainers, in NLP, in 1990. I worked on NLP training courses 1991 - 1997. I trained for what is called the "Master Practitioner" under Robert Dilts and Judith Delozier in 1998, in Stanta Cruz, where NLP all began. And I had to look up what an engram was, because despite nearly 10 years training under several world-class NLP trainers, I had never heard the term or seen that viewpoint. Core NLP is not concerned with the biological mechanism of memory, but how it subjectively, functionally, works and can be worked with. This conflicts disturbingly with the above comment as to what is "core NLP". TBP 11:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This eventually lead to FT2 filing Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming. FT2 actually brings up and dismisses the sock's involvement.

One editor, User:TBP, was explicitly self-identified as a sock puppet on his talk page before becoming involved in this article Oct 17 DIFF. He played no part in the vote or its discussion, and only a minor role in the talk page debate, mostly between Oct 27-29.

TBP quits editing 31 days before FT2's failed self-nomination for adminship. For his second, successful candidacy, he was nominated by jossi.

[Milton Roe]

TBP quits editing 31 days before FT2's failed self-nomination for adminship. For his second, successful candidacy, he was nominated by jossi.

Lol. Very nice, Sherlock. That's more or less a slam-dunk. Better let jossi know he's been had by a classic sock, in a strictly neurolinguistic way. You know, jossi's such a sweet soul that he'll doubtless thank you and then try to do the right thing, now that the error of his ways has been pointed out. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) Jimbo, too.

And, as for the other thing that bothered me..... yeah, that's it! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif) THAT is what it was about FT2's rhetoric that was making my eyes glaze over. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/happy.gif) Keeping me from getting though even a complete paragraph of his writing. He's a professional NLP-style councelor.

From his userpage: I do a lot of dispute handling and regular second opinions for other administrators and users, including a variety of informal mediations, dispute smoothings and other decisions.

Anybody who uses the word "guidance" that much, has got to be a boy scout leader or a professional stress therapist. Maybe a little animal therapy? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif)

[Jon Awbrey]

Anybody who uses the word "guidance" that much, has got to be a boy scout leader or a professional stress therapist. Maybe a little animal therapy? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif)

I think they call that a Horse's Ass Whisperer …

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

[Milton Roe]

Anybody who uses the word "guidance" that much, has got to be a boy scout leader or a professional stress therapist. Maybe a little animal therapy? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif)

I think they call that a Horse's Ass Whisperer …

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

That's it, Cesar! FT2-- the dog-ass-whisperer. He trains editors. He rehabilitates animals. He sniffs anything. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/mellow.gif)

[Proabivouac]

There was also this from the other day…

“comment re-signed, got friends staying the week who were logged in. Sorry for the confusion”
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210302581
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210303087

I haven't had the chance to consider if User:Lovingboth is FT2, but it sure is funny in the context of the discussion.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac:

[Moulton]

Started the article on Emotion in animals.

Why is this even an open question? Candace Pert has a book out called The Molecules of Emotion. These same neuropeptides are found in most species (especially mammals), and play comparable roles. Virtually every creature has the emotion of fear. Moreover, there is a theory of emotions and learning that identifies emotional states keyed to learning. And many animals (especially mammals) are able to learn.

[Milton Roe]

There was also this from the other day…

“comment re-signed, got friends staying the week who were logged in. Sorry for the confusion”
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210302581
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210303087

I haven't had the chance to consider if User:Lovingboth is FT2, but it sure is funny in the context of the discussion.

But strangely enough, somebody very conversant about BiCon when bisexual people came and slept on your floor and used your computer in the middle of an edit, just as self-illustrated earlier here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=18905157

And in general edited while holding hands, and logged into each other's accounts, in a generally similar gay trainpulling way. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif) Lordy.

Oh, look at the attention to the David Irving article. Criticize this one and you'll be a Nazi and holocaust denier, too. You thought I was kidding about all this, didn't you?

[Milton Roe]

Started the article on Emotion in animals.

Why is this even an open question? Candace Pert has a book out called The Molecules of Emotion. These same neuropeptides are found in most species (especially mammals), and play comparable roles. Virtually every creature has the emotion of fear. Moreover, there is a theory of emotions and learning that identifies emotional states keyed to learning. And many animals (especially mammals) are able to learn.

It is weird that anybody even debates this, isn't it? I can't imagine anybody who's had a moderately bright cat or dog who doesn't know full well that they have emotions and think (though of course not with words).

Geez, my cats have a "want food" meow. And they have a "purr in anticipation of feeding" which is just the same as you'll hear a mother cat aim at her kittens. It's practically "cat" for "chow time". Just as a peculiar jaw-chatter is cat for "bird!" You can get the "chow time" purr when you go for a can of catfood, and you can get it before you OPEN the can. They know very well what you're about to do.

I once had a cat who figured out that I could be counted on to knock bugs off a wall when they were too high up for the cat to jump (cats love bugs and this one particularly loved them). Once, he came to get me to knock down a particularly big beetle from an interior home wall. "Okay, okay" I said. As I approached, the cat sat under the beetle and understood that I had the idea-- the beetle was about to come down. And for that, I got a very loud "here comes food!" purr. That was one happy cat. Anticipation is the best part, even if you're a cat. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

[Docknell]

Yes I think this edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=28199367

is highly damning. As you can see from TBP's edits, he has played a rather large role in both the NLP and the bestiality promotion drive.

And taken together with the "lovingboth" account; If FT2 (and friends) were to apply his own banning approach to himself, he would have been perma-banned many times over.

Its going to be worth checking out the bestiality and NLP article for more potential FT2 socks. Especially now those fringe articles are under increased likelihood of people allowing the majority weight to get a proper chance. FT2 will no doubt be utterly livid that his religion and practices are being scrutinized and criticized. Judging by the control freak level of his editing, I can only imagine more dodgy admin behaviour appearing.



This post has been edited by Docknell:

[Peter Damian]

That’s incredible. FT2 also admits to being trained in NLP. The subjects and interests (Miletski, Pinyan &c) are identical. V strong probability indeed.

And, as for the other thing that bothered me..... yeah, that's it! THAT is what it was about FT2's rhetoric that was making my eyes glaze over. Keeping me from getting though even a complete paragraph of his writing. He's a professional NLP-style councelor.

I was put off him from the very start, by the use of the word ‘behaviours’ in the plural. This reminded me of those awful training sessions and awaydays one was forced to attend in the lowlier days of employment.

Another thing, I’ve been searching to find who his previous identity was on Wiki. I’m sure there was one, because his very first edit was on Zoophilia, now oversighted. It’s generally received wisdom that someone who goes straight in like that is a sockpuppet, especially when they show such proficient editing skills.

I had thought he was Erik Moeller (Erik having started the article on Zoophilia) but the editing styles are so different I rejected this. But FT2 must have had some connection with the higher echelons from the very start, or obvious reasons. So perhaps it’s time to ask the question: who is FT2. The information provided by the TBP edits is interesting. He started off in England. That also explained something that puzzled me: he is based in the US, but often uses English spelling conventions.

One to ponder…

[Miltopia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210302485

Using the wrong account to comment on a sockpuppetry case... how classic.

[Milton Roe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210302485

Using the wrong account to comment on a sockpuppetry case... how classic.

And one in which the two people "were exceptionally close and used the same computer". (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

Hope you wiped it off, FT2. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

[Proabivouac]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210302485

Using the wrong account to comment on a sockpuppetry case... how classic.

Looking back on his recent deletion of my Orderinchaos sockpuppet report, it's now clear that FT2 had an undlisclosed conflict of interest.

[dogbiscuit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210302485

Using the wrong account to comment on a sockpuppetry case... how classic.

And one in which the two people "were exceptionally close and used the same computer". (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

Hope you wiped it off, FT2. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

It is worth noting that the "other person" had not been editing, there is just a low level of ocassional trivia being entered. I can understand that FT2 might sign out of his computer to allow someone else to use it to keep privileges secure, but I would then have expected to see some sort of editing session if someone had signed in. Unconvincing, though there doesn't seem to be anything of interest being edited on the account. (It doesn't even make sense as a sock account, unless there are oversights to cover tracks).

So is this abusive socking covered up with abusive oversights?

May be nothing, may be very fishy. What larks.

[wikiwhistle]

I was put off him from the very start

He's "not right" and when I said that to someone else they said, "you don't have to have a genius IQ to be able to see that."

[wikiwhistle]

That’s incredible. FT2 also admits to being trained in NLP. The subjects and interests (Miletski, Pinyan &c) are identical. V strong probability indeed.

Maybe not quite as uncommon amongst zoophiliacs as in the general population, as people in my experience get into learning NLP due to wanting to get round a lack of social skills. And few things must influence your feeling of confidence socially more than knowing what the person you're talking to would think of you if they knew your proclivities.

Also-

Are we accusing these two people of "liking animals in a similar way?" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[Alex]

I have to say this looks pretty compelling... although there'll be no CheckUser logs for the TBP account, so there's no way it can be proven. The "friend" staying over, and logged into Wikipedia seems way too farfetched imo.

[Moulton]

Don't most admins also have non-privileged accounts?

It's only an issue if multiple accounts weigh in on community consensus debates or vote-stacking. I've seen Odd Nature post some of his talk page comments while not logged in from his office computer at Macys San Francisco IT Center.

[Peter Damian]

This is getting v puzzling. LovingBoth has a very different edit pattern to FT2, so odds are they are genuinely different people. But then if so, (1) that disproves the whole line of argument that FT2 was making in that very thread. How ironic. (2) It raises the question of what an English editor (LovingBoth) was doing at FT2's place on the East Coast of the US. The mind boggles. Stranger than fiction.

[edit] I mean, LB has done some work on 'TravelCard Zone 3' for goodness' sake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelcard_Zone_3

And what a crap article that is, by the way. How many of Wikipedia's 2m pages are like that?
Or this

Someone - ideally someone who knows more about it than me - should say something about the major building works that are going to happen with the 'Thameslink' expansion works due to start in a couple of years. As I understand it, the South Eastern service will be diverted elsewhere while the main 'Thameslink' platforms are extended across the river to allow 12 carriages to be used on the route. Lovingboth 08:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Blackfriars_station

This is much scarier than the animal stuff.


This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[wikiwhistle]

(2) It raises the question of what an English editor (LovingBoth) was doing at FT2's place on the East Coast of the US. The mind boggles. Stranger than fiction.

Ermmm...he tries to disguise the country he lives in because of the terrible stalkers he deals with. (no joke)

This post has been edited by wikiwhistle:

[guy]

Someone - ideally someone who knows more about it than me - should say something about the major building works that are going to happen with the 'Thameslink' expansion works due to start in a couple of years. As I understand it, the South Eastern service will be diverted elsewhere while the main 'Thameslink' platforms are extended across the river to allow 12 carriages to be used on the route. Lovingboth 08:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Blackfriars_station

Wikipedia ISNOT a crystal ball.

[Kato]

Loveinboth was certainly in the UK this week. It looks like he was doing exactly the same thing as me: Recalling just how bad a snooker player Willie Thorne was, yet Thorne gets to disparage the techniques and shot choices of great players like O'Sullivan and Hendry every April/May on TV. How does that work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=210530945

[Alex]

It raises the question of what an English editor (LovingBoth) was doing at FT2's place on the East Coast of the US.

Do you know where FT2 is located?

[wikiwhistle]

I cannot say- but I've been told he doesn't want people to know which country he's in sometimes, due to "stalkers" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Other than that, Alex, your guess is as good as mine or you probably know more than I. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by wikiwhistle:

[Alex]

I cannot say- but I've been told he doesn't want people to know which country he's in sometimes, due to "stalkers" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Other than that, Alex, your guess is as good as mine or you probably know more than I. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

I won't say either, I'm not into this "stalking" business. But FT2 has left no personal information on himself as far as I'm aware, so I can't see it being a problem.

[Miltopia]

I didn't think about this before, but why was Lovingboth even logged in to begin with? His most recent edits with that account were in late April...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contr...ions/Lovingboth

Here's what I think happened: Lovingboth had made some edits before acting as FT2 on the noticeboard, and then once FT2 realized his blunder, he oversighted them. He couldn't oversight the noticeboard comment because there was already a reply and it would make the diff look funny. So the answer I think is yes, he is willing to use abusive oversights (or at least oversights that would make FloFlo say "I BEG YOUR PARDON???" again) to cover his tracks.

[wikiwhistle]

I wonder/assume that the name "lovingboth" means loving both animals and humans?

[Miltopia]

I assumed it was both men and women, since it had posted on some bisexuality topic, the name of which escapes me.

[wikiwhistle]

I assumed it was both men and women, since it had posted on some bisexuality topic, the name of which escapes me.

lol ok my mistake (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Looking at this "lovingboth"'s contribs it really would be a piece of acting for this to be FT2, unless he has a side to him we don't often see highlighted. Lovingboth seems very lighthearted in temperament, he reminds me of someone else, not FT2 (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by wikiwhistle:

[Peter Damian]

It raises the question of what an English editor (LovingBoth) was doing at FT2's place on the East Coast of the US.

Do you know where FT2 is located?

Editing patterns are incontrovertibly East coast US. Hence my puzzlement.

[Moulton]

Editing patterns are incontrovertibly East coast US. Hence my puzzlement.

If he happens to be anywhere near Boston, he can come visit me any Saturday afternoon at the Museum of Science, where I will be glad to puzzle him.

[Alex]

It raises the question of what an English editor (LovingBoth) was doing at FT2's place on the East Coast of the US.

Do you know where FT2 is located?

Editing patterns are incontrovertibly East coast US. Hence my puzzlement.

You do realise that people can edit on topics that are not related to their country?

[wikiwhistle]

I cannot say- but I've been told he doesn't want people to know which country he's in sometimes, due to "stalkers" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Other than that, Alex, your guess is as good as mine or you probably know more than I. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

I won't say either, I'm not into this "stalking" business.

Nor me, but I also think people are sometimes a bit overly concerned with "stalkers." Though given the number of outings there've been recently, I can now completely understand.

[Peter Damian]

It raises the question of what an English editor (LovingBoth) was doing at FT2's place on the East Coast of the US.

Do you know where FT2 is located?

Editing patterns are incontrovertibly East coast US. Hence my puzzlement.

You do realise that people can edit on topics that are not related to their country?

This is going by average editing times, not by subject. FT2's editing pattern is typical of someone editing US eastern time.

Looking at this "lovingboth"'s contribs it really would be a piece of acting for this to be FT2, unless he has a side to him we don't often see highlighted. Lovingboth seems very lighthearted in temperament, he reminds me of someone else, not FT2 (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Yes exactly. My initial reaction is they are not the same editor, based on the style, and the content. But what was he doing at FT2's place, and how was he logged in? That is v bizarre.

[edit] oo er missus I see I have just made it into Encyclopedia Dramatica, on the Arbcom page - see under FTZoo - they have quoted my real name as well. Oh well, there goes the neighbourhood.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[Docknell]

This seems to show very clearly that TBP is an abusive sock of FT2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=26762694

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=26740945

TBP is following the same line as FT2, that all the minor research papers on NLP should be present, whereas HeadlyDown has already shown the reviews of all research (the opinions of qualified scientists who can make sense of all research findings).

TBP’s push for listing all the research on NLP, rather than the reviews, goes as far as to quite the sort of half-truths that FT2 is prone to using

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=26723763

And of course, FT2 later started listing all the separate little research findings on NLP, rather than the overviews from Scientists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&action=history

Interestingly, Action Potential (Aka Comaze (Comaze.com)) works with a company called Inspiritive, that also lists a huge amount of research supposedly supportive of NLP (since the info was last presented here, Action Potential has removed the web pages, though I have the printscreens)

http://www.inspiritive.com.au/nlp-research/database.htm

Of course, the main reviews of NLP have been left out. It’s a typical pseudoscience tactic designed to appeal to confirmation bias.

So basically, you have TBP (FT2) admitting to being an NLP practitioner. Its not surprising they are all so happy to have the NLP article in such an obscured state. TBP seems also to follow the typical POV forking of “negative views on zoophiles = views on zoosadism”. The cleanup of that article has been so incredibly slow. Its only just recently that the lead section has had the previous NAMBLA-esque conclusion removed

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=198041101

Pro-bestiality editors there were very reluctant to lose the “dog-lovers riding into the sunset happy ending” and they kept it there for years.

[Peter Damian]

[replying to Docknell] Tht's VERY serious. There were 3 incidents when FT2 ganged up with other like-minded people on Zoo and NLP articles, basically goading them until they reacted uncivilly, for which they then got indef-blocked. I had always thought this was a case of merely bullying (not that bullying has anything to recommend it). But doing this… Even if the sock is not coming at you at the same time, it multiplies the number of enemies you think you have, and can cause you to blink, and that’s it.

The Arbcom should look at this one again, har har.

[edit]

Your call to "just focus on facts" and "baseline" and "encyclopediac" is one I support, but not in the same way you do. Your idea of these is "I don't want to be bothered with the possibility that there could be merit in both sides' views". You already know what you want the article to say, as witness your selective concept of "neutral reporting". A good call to "focus on facts" covers <u>all</u> facts, good "baseline conclusions" are not predetermined, and a good question right now would be "what is a balanced wiki-neutral view that ''fairly represents all findings''"

.

That is also very damning. Note TBP’s excessive (and grammatically incorrect) overuse of scarequotes, just like his friend.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[No one of consequence]

This is getting v puzzling. LovingBoth has a very different edit pattern to FT2, so odds are they are genuinely different people. But then if so, (1) that disproves the whole line of argument that FT2 was making in that very thread. How ironic.

Not really. It depends on how many times Lovingboth and FT2 have edited from the same place vs a different place, and how many times Poetlister et al. edited from the same place and different places.

[Daniel Brandt]

From 2006-07-24 IRC log capture:

FT2` (i=FT2@87.113.13.183.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) 87.113.13.183 | PLUSNET TECHNOLOGIES LTD * UNITED KINGDOM

appears to be a DSL account in London

Wikiscanner on that Class C

I don't know if this yields any clues.

[Shalom]

From 2006-07-24 IRC log capture:

FT2` (i=FT2@87.113.13.183.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) 87.113.13.183 | PLUSNET TECHNOLOGIES LTD * UNITED KINGDOM

appears to be a DSL account in London

Wikiscanner on that Class C

I don't know if this yields any clues.

Daniel, check that IP against this one: 58.178.135.242. TBP accidentally signed with that IP address while logged out on October 31, 2005, then logged in to correct it.

I've taken close to an hour to review the contribution logs for editing overlaps and similar interests and habits. It's difficult to come to a conclusion. Having recently challenged FT2 on the Poetlister case, I am in no position to make a neutral statement on an allegation that FT2 may have used a sockpuppet. I would consider forwarding my data to someone else (maybe Proabivouac?) and letting other people handle this.

There are multiple instances where FT2 and TLP edit the same pages within less than 20 minutes of one another. It doesn't prove anything, but it makes me suspicious. I take allegations against a sitting arbitrator very seriously, so out of fairness to him, I will not say more.

[Daniel Brandt]

Daniel, check that IP against this one: 58.178.135.242. TBP accidentally signed with that IP address while logged out on October 31, 2005, then logged in to correct it.

I've taken close to an hour to review the contribution logs for editing overlaps and similar interests and habits. It's difficult to come to a conclusion. Having recently challenged FT2 on the Poetlister case, I am in no position to make a neutral statement on an allegation that FT2 may have used a sockpuppet. I would consider forwarding my data to someone else (maybe Proabivouac?) and letting other people handle this.

There are multiple instances where FT2 and TLP edit the same pages within less than 20 minutes of one another. It doesn't prove anything, but it makes me suspicious. I take allegations against a sitting arbitrator very seriously, so out of fairness to him, I will not say more.

58.178.135.242 appears to be a DSL account in Melbourne, Australia. Don't see him in my IRC logs.
Here's the Class C Wikiscanner.