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> [[Essjay controversy]] up for Featured Article, Hold the main page!
blissyu2
post Sat 1st September 2007, 10:34pm
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Yes, apparently Malber wrote what happened in Harry Potter just minutes after it was released (it was available elsewhere on the internet just minutes later). I am not sure that that is why Malber was banned though.
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alienus
post Sat 1st September 2007, 10:57pm
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Wiki-censored, not wiki-centric.

QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Sat 1st September 2007, 3:31pm) *

I think even the title is a little too Wikipedia-centered. I think this article had a more neutral title when it was named Essjay scandal, because the event was really only controversial on Wikipedia itself; few (if any) sources are disputing that Ryan Jordan used false credentials while editing Wikipedia, during content disputes, and to the press. Few people outside of Wikipedia would argue that Essjay was justified in making false claims to the press or during edit disputes, so the "controversy" exists only on Wikipedia. Elsewhere it's pretty much a scandal.


Uhm, the bad title isn't about being too wiki-centered; it's an attempt at whitewashing the truth. Yes, you're right that it's not a controversy, but calling it a scandal, while accurate, makes Wikipedia look bad.

Under the broken view of NPOV that is often held by biased admins, anything that makes your side look bad isn't neutra, even when it's entirely factuall. Just look at how Jayjg and the rest of Team Israel tacked on "Allegations of" to [[Israeli Apartheid]]. The term, as cited, is simply "Israeli apartheid", and the article is about the term. Whether it's alleged or actual is irrelevant; it exists as a term. For comparison, look at [[Zionist Occupation Government]], which doesn't start with 'allegation of" because it's too ridiculous to take seriously.

Al
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Pwok
post Sat 1st September 2007, 11:19pm
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QUOTE(LamontStormstar @ Sat 1st September 2007, 3:24pm) *
I never looked at the whole Malber story but I remember reading somewhere or another he banned Malber merely because Malber spoiled Harry Potter for him and I guess WJScribe was mad.

Yet one more confirmation that Wikipedia is a nest of vindictive teenagers. So this is what it's come to: the most popular source of information on the Internet is a collection of junk arranged and rearranged by 16-year-olds who feud over Harry Potter. That's even more depressing than Big Brother, isn't it?
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Unrepentant Vandal
post Sat 1st September 2007, 11:32pm
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QUOTE(Pwok @ Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:19am) *
So this is what it's come to: the most popular source of information on the Internet is a collection of junk arranged and rearranged by 16-year-olds who feud over Harry Potter. That's even more depressing than Big Brother, isn't it?


FORUM Image

Not so depressing...

In the interests of full disclosure, all I know is that this person was a Big Brother contestent and was fired for being racists. But had I been watching her I wouldn't have been depressed!
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Firsfron of Ronchester
post Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:04am
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QUOTE(alienus @ Sat 1st September 2007, 10:57pm) *

Wiki-censored, not wiki-centric.

Uhm, the bad title isn't about being too wiki-centered; it's an attempt at whitewashing the truth. Yes, you're right that it's not a controversy, but calling it a scandal, while accurate, makes Wikipedia look bad.

Under the broken view of NPOV that is often held by biased admins, anything that makes your side look bad isn't neutra, even when it's entirely factuall.



Yeah. I just meant if those folks weren't so focused on Wikipedia, they'd notice people outside Wikipedia don't seem to find what Essjay did was "controversial" at all. To have "controversy", you have to have people who disagree with one another. Outside of Wikipedia, no one really disagrees that Essjay perpetrated a fraud to the NYT. On Wikipedia, while it was happening, there were editors who actually refused to believe it had ever happened (and with his sub-pages, including his confession page, deleted it couldn't be "proved" to them).

The title may be a whitewash, but (groan) at least the article is an acknowledgement that something unprofessional did happen, unlike the quickly deleted subpages.

Taking a look at the FAC now, it's clear this article will never pass FAC; the comments are mostly of the "having an article about ourselves on the main page would make us look stupid" variety.
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grievous
post Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:32am
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QUOTE(blissyu2 @ Sat 1st September 2007, 1:03pm) *

Bizarre. Much as it might be fun to have that on Wikipedia's front page, its wrong on so many levels to do that.


In it's early days it was on the main page for a about ten minutes in the DYK section. It even included Essjay's picture. It was removed after some dramabombing on ANI. Malber was the nominator. He got a stern warning about it, but the irony is that it takes an administrator to approve something for DYK!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=113674625
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LamontStormstar
post Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:47am
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QUOTE(Pwok @ Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:19am) *
So this is what it's come to: the most popular source of information on the Internet is a collection of junk arranged and rearranged by 16-year-olds who feud over Harry Potter. That's even more depressing than Big Brother, isn't it?



I saw somewhere that people would get back at administrators by giving them harry potter spoilers.


QUOTE(Unrepentant Vandal @ Sat 1st September 2007, 4:32pm) *

FORUM Image


If that picture is gone it's a hot nude chick saying she had an erotic dream about harry potter.
Well, the actor has posed nude. There's also lots of erotic fanfiction about harry potter.
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Pwok
post Sun 2nd September 2007, 4:39pm
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QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Sat 1st September 2007, 5:04pm) *
The title may be a whitewash, but (groan) at least the article is an acknowledgement that something unprofessional did happen, unlike the quickly deleted subpages.

"Unprofessional?" Isn't the whole point of Wikipedia to be unprofessional? To be a professional, you need the following:

1. Advanced training and/or education

2. An ethics code separate from that of the enterprise you associate with

3. Substantial discretion over your job

None of these are present at Wikipedia. To expect "professionalism" from them is to misunderstand what a professional is.

This post has been edited by Pwok: Sun 2nd September 2007, 4:39pm
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the fieryangel
post Mon 3rd September 2007, 9:34am
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QUOTE(LamontStormstar @ Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:47am) *

If that picture is gone it's a hot nude chick saying she had an erotic dream about harry potter.
Well, the actor has posed nude. There's also lots of erotic fanfiction about harry potter.


He posed nude because he was in a Westend production of "Equus" and the role he played has to be nude (it's part of the story--and it's more disturbing than sexual). Since everybody was going to see him nude for most of an evening onstage every night for weeks on end, I guess that the producers decided that photos were in order.



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Rochelle
post Mon 3rd September 2007, 3:08pm
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There's no way it's going to pass. In fact, it was suggested to be closed. WP:SNOW. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Waaaaaaaaayyyyyy.
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JoseClutch
post Tue 4th September 2007, 2:22pm
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QUOTE(Pwok @ Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:39pm) *

QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Sat 1st September 2007, 5:04pm) *
The title may be a whitewash, but (groan) at least the article is an acknowledgement that something unprofessional did happen, unlike the quickly deleted subpages.

"Unprofessional?" Isn't the whole point of Wikipedia to be unprofessional? To be a professional, you need the following:

1. Advanced training and/or education

2. An ethics code separate from that of the enterprise you associate with

3. Substantial discretion over your job

None of these are present at Wikipedia. To expect "professionalism" from them is to misunderstand what a professional is.


I'm not sure this is a good description of professionalism, and the only point of these that Wikipedians *might* not meet is the first one. All of them apply their own ethic code, and as an undirected volunteer you have substantial discretion over your job. Editors aren't forced to make any edits, and admins aren't forced to take any actions. We all have discretion. We all have our own ethics code, although there are some rules, I've never had a job without rules. And while many Wikipedians have little or no formal training, there are lots of Wikipedias with extensive formal training. Check out the math articles, it's rife with genuine Ph.D.s (which is evident just from the writing), and being mostly "nerds", many have at leave reasonable training (bachelors or what have you).

We're not professional because we don't get paid. I meet all three of those points, (more or less - I'm in the middle of a Ph.D. so how "advanced" my education is can be debated - I have a four year honours degree in science, you may not consider that "advanced"), but I'm not a professional, I edit Wikipedia as a hobby.
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Jonny Cache
post Tue 4th September 2007, 2:44pm
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QUOTE(JoseClutch @ Tue 4th September 2007, 10:22am) *

QUOTE(Pwok @ Sun 2nd September 2007, 12:39pm) *

QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Sat 1st September 2007, 5:04pm) *

The title may be a whitewash, but (groan) at least the article is an acknowledgement that something unprofessional did happen, unlike the quickly deleted subpages.


"Unprofessional?" Isn't the whole point of Wikipedia to be unprofessional? To be a professional, you need the following:
  1. Advanced training and/or education
  2. An ethics code separate from that of the enterprise you associate with
  3. Substantial discretion over your job
None of these are present at Wikipedia. To expect "professionalism" from them is to misunderstand what a professional is.


I'm not sure this is a good description of professionalism, and the only point of these that Wikipedians *might* not meet is the first one. All of them apply their own ethic code, and as an undirected volunteer you have substantial discretion over your job. Editors aren't forced to make any edits, and admins aren't forced to take any actions. We all have discretion. We all have our own ethics code, although there are some rules, I've never had a job without rules. And while many Wikipedians have little or no formal training, there are lots of Wikipedias with extensive formal training. Check out the math articles, it's rife with genuine Ph.D.s (which is evident just from the writing), and being mostly "nerds", many have at leave reasonable training (bachelors or what have you).

We're not professional because we don't get paid. I meet all three of those points, (more or less - I'm in the middle of a Ph.D. so how "advanced" my education is can be debated — I have a four year honours degree in science, you may not consider that "advanced"), but I'm not a professional, I edit Wikipedia as a hobby.


In ordinary usage, being a professional means you get paid, as in professional hitman. Sorry, gals, hitmen as a rule are a hidebound traditional sexist bunch — and there's a thick, even •proof glass ceiling among hit professors, and even though we all know there are many fine hitmisses, hitnymphs, and hitwomen, somehow those more PC termofarts just ain't made the hit parade yet, with or without a •.

Where was I ??? Oh yeah, professionalism …

The question is whether Wikipediots observe Norms Of Research Methodology (NORM's) that are analogous to those observed in the relevant professions.

Now that is such a good question that I think it's worth starting another thread devoted to discussing it — give me a second, as thinking up new titles is always something of a strain for me.

Jonny cool.gif


This post has been edited by Jonny Cache: Tue 4th September 2007, 2:58pm
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Yehudi
post Tue 4th September 2007, 3:35pm
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QUOTE(Jonny Cache @ Tue 4th September 2007, 3:44pm) *

In ordinary usage, being a professional means you get paid, as in professional hitman.

That's rather an abuse of language. Doctors, accountants, lawyers and people like that are in the professions. Hitmen are tradesmen, so when they visit me they have to use the rear entrance.
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Jonny Cache
post Tue 4th September 2007, 5:08pm
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QUOTE(Yehudi @ Tue 4th September 2007, 11:35am) *

QUOTE(Jonny Cache @ Tue 4th September 2007, 3:44pm) *

In ordinary usage, being a professional means you get paid, as in professional hitman.


That's rather an abuse of language. Doctors, accountants, lawyers, and people like that are in the professions. Hitmen are tradesmen, so when they visit me they have to use the rear entrance.


Yes, they tend to come and go the same way.

Wait !!! &madash; I hear a helicopter on the roof &hellip;

Jonny Ricachet cool.gif

This post has been edited by Jonny Cache: Tue 4th September 2007, 9:34pm
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Pwok
post Tue 4th September 2007, 10:24pm
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QUOTE(JoseClutch @ Tue 4th September 2007, 7:22am) *
I'm not sure this is a good description of professionalism, and the only point of these that Wikipedians *might* not meet is the first one.

It is close to the U.S. Department of Labor's definition used to determine whether someone is exempt from wage and hour regulations on account of being a professional.

QUOTE(JoseClutch @ Tue 4th September 2007, 7:22am) *
Check out the math articles, it's rife with genuine Ph.D.s (which is evident just from the writing), and being mostly "nerds", many have at leave reasonable training (bachelors or what have you).

Leaving aside the subject/object disagreement in your sentence, there is no way to verify the credentials claimed by people who edit Wikipedia's articles. Ryan Jordan fraudulently claimed that he was a professional, and was supported in his fraud by Jimbo Wales, one of Wikipedia's founders. No credential claims published on Wikipedia can be accepted without verification.

QUOTE(JoseClutch @ Tue 4th September 2007, 7:22am) *
We're not professional because we don't get paid.

This would eliminate you from consideration under the Department of Labor standard, but someone could easily be an "unemployed professional."

QUOTE(JoseClutch @ Tue 4th September 2007, 7:22am) *
I meet all three of those points, (more or less - I'm in the middle of a Ph.D. so how "advanced" my education is can be debated - I have a four year honours degree in science, you may not consider that "advanced"), but I'm not a professional, I edit Wikipedia as a hobby.

Being "in the middle of a Ph.D." is like being "a little bit pregnant." As for honors degrees, you can drive a semi-truck through the loopholes.

This post has been edited by Pwok: Tue 4th September 2007, 10:27pm
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Firsfron of Ronchester
post Wed 5th September 2007, 1:46am
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QUOTE(Pwok @ Tue 4th September 2007, 10:24pm) *


Leaving aside the subject/object disagreement in your sentence, there is no way to verify the credentials claimed by people who edit Wikipedia's articles.


Are we talking about all instances or in most cases? If it's the latter, I'd agree with you: most folks aren't willing to provide detailed information about themselves on Wikipedia. However, I've been able to verify various editors' credentials when they've linked to their university post-doctoral or MS program page with contact information. Sending off an e-mail or two to receive verification ("Yes, it's really me on Wikipedia") is an easy way to confirm someone is who s/he says s/he is. Most of the people I work with regularly on Wikipedia who have advanced degrees can easily be confirmed. I'm not saying that's the case for most of Wikipedia; it's just my experience from working within one particular WikiProject, which has attracted several professionals.
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Pwok
post Wed 5th September 2007, 1:49am
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QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Tue 4th September 2007, 6:46pm) *
Are we talking about all instances or in most cases?

Unless someone provides the means of verification, then it's impossible. This is one of the many reasons not to trust anything on The Children's Encyclopedia that calls itself Wikipedia. The organization is about as unprofessional and unfactual as those things can ever get.
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