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> THE 2ND SUPER SECRET LIST (sent to me by name-withheld-by-request), I got this via a verifiable WP source just now - JzG's secret list
Disillusioned Lackey
post Tue 27th November 2007, 7:47pm
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I've received this information from a verified Wikipedia editor. No, I'm not going to say if the person is an admin or not. I'm not saying anything about the person, other than that they said, "please, someone needs this to get out for the good of the project". Nuff said.

Yes, I checked to be sure it isn't a crank. I'm not stupid. wink.gif

I don't know why they sent it to me. I've never spoken to the person before. But I intend to honor their trust.

Do with it what you will. Use it, ignore it, badmouth it. I didn't write it. I don't have a dog in this fight, really...

...beyond my normal disrespect for shady practices, of which this is sadly indicative of ubiquitousness. sad.gif

Super Secret List No. 2 (a la JzG)
  1. Cary Bass
  2. Durova
  3. FloNight
  4. Gnangarra
  5. Herby
  6. Jonathan Hochman
  7. JzG
  8. Lar
  9. Matthew Brown
  10. Sarah Ewart
  11. SlimVirgin
Please don't ask me who sent it. If someone at Wikipedia has serious concerns about such things, then tell me to whom the person who sent it to me should report, without negative ramifications. Then I will tell THEM to contact that person THEMSELVES.

I will not "out" the person. To anyone. Ever. Capiche? Thanks. smile.gif

NOTE: This message has no relation to the "Kelly Martin's message of non-membership on soopersekrit lists"to about 24 hours ago. Wow - I am getting secret missives left and right these days! Makes me feel like Double-oh-DL, aka, 00DL cool.gif

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Tue 27th November 2007, 8:45pm
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everyking
post Tue 27th November 2007, 7:56pm
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You say this is the second list? Do you mean the investigation list that they say was spun-off from the cyberstalking list?
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Disillusioned Lackey
post Tue 27th November 2007, 7:59pm
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Presumably. Frankly, I haven't followed the on-wiki discussions about this. I did comment a bit on Piper's thread, but that's it.

I don't know why the person picked me to send it to, but it is them, and not an anonymous sending.

So yes, if the persons who sent it is correct (and it is a WP contributor of whose name I was aware - but to whom I had never before spoken directly) then it is the 2nd, said list.

It looks about right anyways.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Tue 27th November 2007, 8:10pm
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gomi
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:02pm
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Wonderful and fascinating news -- yey another sub-cabal! But who are some of these folks: Gnangarra? Herby? And why are they slumming with the likes of JzG, Slimey, and Durova?

Gnangarra seems a more-or-less averagely-to-under-averagely-abusive Australian admin, and Herby (User:Herbythyme) just became an admin two weeks ago -- hardly enough time to become abusive!
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Proabivouac
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:13pm
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There are Matthew Brown and JzG again, Wikipedia's in-house outers and attack farmers.

The presence of Cary Bass gives a line to the foundation. Lar, Matthew Brown and FloNight provide checkuser firepower, and the latter two a line to the Arbitration Committee. This would be a powerful list, whoever else was on it.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac: Tue 27th November 2007, 8:20pm
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Miltopia
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:25pm
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Who sent it to you?

Look how many paranoid/two-faced people are on there. No surprise, they can't get enough real support on-wiki. It is so cowardly that these people are not willing to stick up for one another on wiki. My opinion of SlimVirgin drops more steeply every day. I used to think you WR regulars were way too caught up on her, to the point of useless hyperbole, but I"m starting to realize you're right about how shady she is.

I should've expected no less from FloNight, of course. What a terrible, terrible person.

I wonder why Jimbo wasn't on this one? If you ask me, if he wasn't on it, then he wasn't aware of it or he'd insist on being privy to its contents.

This post has been edited by Miltopia: Tue 27th November 2007, 8:40pm
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Disillusioned Lackey
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:32pm
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QUOTE(Miltopia @ Tue 27th November 2007, 2:25pm) *

Who sent it to you?

Read above, please.

Probably the person wants to avoid being hanged. After all, Bass is on the list, as is SV. THINK.

Even if I did say, what difference would that make? I could just as well be lying about that name. Or...

* Someone could say I made up the list. (Im lying, contributor fake, list is fake)
* Someone could say I was sent a list by a fake person. (I'm truthing, contributor fake, list fake)
* Someone could say I was sent the list by a real person who made it up (I'm truthing, contributor real, list fake)

Oh, the permutations.... who cares.

They sent it, I verified, I put it up.

It is that simple.


This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Tue 27th November 2007, 8:46pm
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Miltopia
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:41pm
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I was just kidding :-)

It would be funny if you just made it up.

I hope this person will reveal themselves at some point though.
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guy
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:42pm
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Herby is a long-time Wikimedian who is an admin on loads of other projects.
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Daniel Brandt
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:45pm
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I saw this on WikiEN-l just now, for what it's worth:
QUOTE
Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman at hotmail.co.uk
Tue Nov 27 20:18:23 UTC 2007

On a related note, looks like my little list somehow wound up on WR. Didn't leak, not my fault. Whoever did might have consulted me first...

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=14172

Now, all raise a glass to the virtues of transparency! Secret mailing lists devoted to "private investigations" and "confidential evidence" are a bad thing - and with a secret mailing list - thank heaven the clouds of darkness are blown away! But please don't blame me...

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

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badlydrawnjeff
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:50pm
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No no no, Daniel, that's not the funny one, this is:

QUOTE
Jimmy Wales jwales at wikia.com
Tue Nov 27 17:52:56 UTC 2007

Bryan Derksen wrote:
> There's an ArbCom election coming up, can you imagine the damage that
> would be done to ArbCom's credibility if it were to come out afterward
> that members that were up for election were involved in this and their
> involvement was known but we weren't told about it before voting?


*I* am involved in multiple ongoing private discussions with dozens of
people. The list in question is being badly misrepresented as some kind
of problem. It is a good list, and the purpose of the list is good, and
not everyone on the list is perfect (as is always true).


Jimbo had a prime opportunity to shoot down this sort of cabalism that longtime users and critics have been yelling about for years, and instead he dismisses it as "a good list."

Wow.
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Disillusioned Lackey
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:50pm
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His little list? Yo?

How was it in his hot little hands?

Pfff. This is all so grade school, and I do mean my annoyance with the original list members, of course, but I wish they'd get their act together and clean up shop. I don't mind them using WR, or even me, as a conduit, but make something of it people..... okay?

This is all a bit boring.
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The Joy
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:53pm
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What happened to community trust and decency?

They must have been deleted in a MFD when we weren't looking!
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Disillusioned Lackey
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:54pm
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QUOTE(badlydrawnjeff @ Tue 27th November 2007, 2:50pm) *

url=http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-November/086094.html]this is[/url]:

QUOTE
Jimmy Wales jwales at wikia.com
Tue Nov 27 17:52:56 UTC 2007

*I* am involved in multiple ongoing private discussions with dozens of
people. The list in question is being badly misrepresented as some kind
of problem. It is a good list, and the purpose of the list is good, and
not everyone on the list is perfect (as is always true).


Jimbo had a prime opportunity to shoot down this sort of cabalism that longtime users and critics have been yelling about for years, and instead he dismisses it as "a good list."

Wow.

SO Not wow. Anytime Jimbo denies collusion, and cronyism (what is known as cabalism) he's not speaking saying what he thinks, or what is.

He is simply making press statements to counteract what he said in the Oct 2001 online discussion statement that he was "dictator" and that a select group, called a "cabal" would get special priviliges, "karma points' for loyalty. Jimbo talks out of both sides of his mouth (as well as other places). wink.gif

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Tue 27th November 2007, 8:56pm
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Poetlister
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:56pm
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I just don't believe that Herby is involved. When I was attacked on WQ over my block, it was Herby who gave the best defence:

http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=...ev&oldid=499279

He has never faltered in his desire to get me unblocked.
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Miltopia
post Tue 27th November 2007, 8:58pm
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QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 27th November 2007, 8:53pm) *

What happened to community trust and decency?

They must have been deleted in a MFD when we weren't looking!


LOL


Jimbo's doulbespeak is intriguing to me. I honestly can't tell if it's calculated sneakiness or just interpersonal incompetence. Thoughts? I should start a poll...



EDIT: By "interpersonal incompetence" I mean just not knowing how to run a community, and not even realizing that he contradicts himself.

This post has been edited by Miltopia: Tue 27th November 2007, 9:00pm
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Disillusioned Lackey
post Tue 27th November 2007, 9:00pm
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QUOTE(Poetlister @ Tue 27th November 2007, 2:56pm) *

I just don't believe that Herby is involved. When I was attacked on WQ over my block, it was Herby who gave the best defence:

http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=...ev&oldid=499279

He has never faltered in his desire to get me unblocked.

Hey, I didn't write it, I was just the messenger. But even if Herby helped you, what prevents Herby from being a counter cyber sleuth? Maybe Herby feels he was helping Slim, and other upset women, like our heroine-who-will-not-be-named (aka DUROVA), by doing this.

Doh! I was talking about why someone Poetlister thinks would be nice, would be on a cybersleuthing team. rolleyes.gif


QUOTE(Miltopia @ Tue 27th November 2007, 2:58pm) *

I honestly can't tell if it's calculated sneakiness or just interpersonal incompetence. Thoughts? I should start a poll...


Let me help you.

QUOTE
I honestly can't tell if it's calculated sneakiness or just interpersonal incompetence. Thoughts? I should start a poll...


Although

QUOTE
I honestly can't tell if it's calculated sneakiness or just interpersonal incompetence. Thoughts? I should start a poll...


Doesn't help matters.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Tue 27th November 2007, 9:04pm
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Miltopia
post Tue 27th November 2007, 9:00pm
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Aha! So it was a woman!
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Disillusioned Lackey
post Tue 27th November 2007, 9:02pm
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QUOTE(Miltopia @ Tue 27th November 2007, 3:00pm) *

Aha! So it was a woman!

Who are you? Inspector Clouseau? You are reminding me of Durova. happy.gif

That was my reply to poetlister, about Herby and why he might have been in such a squad.

Actually: It was Ms. Scarlett, with a candlestick in the drawing room. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Tue 27th November 2007, 9:07pm
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Daniel Brandt
post Tue 27th November 2007, 9:06pm
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Jimbo was on the Wikia "cyberstalking" list that was organized by Slim, from day one. However, JzG implies that Jimbo knew about this JzG "investigations list," and certainly Jimbo is comfortable with the idea behind it. The Wikia list was to discuss cyberstalking. The investigations list was designed to attack. It's an "attack list" or a BADLIST, if you will. No problem for Jimbo:
QUOTE
Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
Jimmy Wales jwales at wikia.com
Tue Nov 27 18:01:27 UTC 2007

The cyberstalking list is in no way problematic.

I know nothing about any "investigations list" and can't comment. But in general, a list for investigations does not strike me as particularly problematic at all. It could be a bad thing, depending on what is meant, but the name itself does not automatically mean badness.

A good investigations list would be a quiet place where users could collect information and ask questions.

"Say, this person looks like a sockpuppet..."

"No, not really, check this out..."

"Oh, ok."

Nothing wrong with that, and in fact we need more of it. (IRC serves this function quite usefully in many cases.)

--Jimbo

But why quibble over which list is which, and who was on them? Just ban them all, starting with Jimbo. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact we need more of it.
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