Sir Fozzie's investigation, a proper sockpuppet report Options

[The Wales Hunter]

I am disturbed by the thought that Sami and MM are not the same person. That is a possibility.

See my sig link.

If you think that Judd is a liar and has forged screen shots, then it is a possibility. I don't think Judd is a liar. I base that on previous crucibles of claims and evidence.

No, I agree. But it would be easier for them to discredit Sami = MM than MM = Weiss. So if they go for the easiest option, they'll hope the rest crumbles.

Also, MM's eagerness to have both accounts answering questions at the same time yesterday suggests the SH account, which only used open proxies, was an account used by more than one persona all along.

[Achromatic]

The biggest word for me in Jimbo's quote is "they" - as in "they are trying to spin this".

"They" is of course, code word to the cabal as "BADSITE alert". The ever so mysterious "they".

[WordBomb]

Also, MM's eagerness to have both accounts answering questions at the same time yesterday suggests the SH account, which only used open proxies, was an account used by more than one persona all along.

I don't think so. I suspect MM agreed to the challenge confident that he'd find someone or, as a fall back, SH would be uncontactable (due to all the darn stalking and harassment).

[The Wales Hunter]

Arbcom has opened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req.../Mantanmoreland

Active arbitrators are:

1. Blnguyen
2. Charles Matthews
3. Deskana
4. FayssalF
5. FloNight
6. FT2
7. Jdforrester
8. Jpgordon
9. Kirill Lokshin (Recused)
10. Matthew Brown (Morven)
11. Newyorkbrad
12. Paul August
13. Sam Blacketer
14. Thebainer
15. UninvitedCompany

This post has been edited by The Wales Hunter: Thu 14th February 2008, 11:24pm

[guy]

The question is: have they both edited Twinkle Twinkle Little Star? That's the decisive test.

[The Wales Hunter]

WordBomb is SamiHarris

From Thatcher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...reland/Evidence

The checkusers have investigated a suspicion that the SamiHarris account was set up by Wordbomb to falsely implicate Mantanmoreland in additional (post-Lastexit) sockpuppetry. The basis for this suspicion is that Wordbomb has also occasionally used proxify.com proxies [1] [2]. Due to the nature of proxy editing, it is unlikely that this suspicion can ever be proved or disproved

[WordBomb]

The checkusers have investigated a suspicion that the SamiHarris account was set up by Wordbomb to falsely implicate Mantanmoreland in additional (post-Lastexit) sockpuppetry. The basis for this suspicion is that Wordbomb has also occasionally used proxify.com proxies [1] [2]. Due to the nature of proxy editing, it is unlikely that this suspicion can ever be proved or disproved

NO WAY.
NO WAY he actually wrote that!

Look at the first of those two diffs [1]. The editor uses the word "irregardless". It is a well known fact that I would sooner eat my own left kidney than use the word "irregardless".

And BTW...Thatcher hadn't even figured out that Samiharris was using Proxify until I told him last week (such is the degree of my intel gathering prowess). He thanked me by blocking the email-only account I used to contact him.

If Thatcher is worth two bits as a checkuser, he better be compiling a list of all proxify users to see what else comes up.

[The Wales Hunter]

Jimbo gives his evidence:

Evidence presented by Jimbo Wales

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=191555850

I have personally seen no persuasive evidence

Because there has been unseemly and false speculation in some quarters that I know this (or related claims) to be true, and that I have admitted as such in private forums, it is important for me to state what I know and what I don't know.

Claims about Mantanmoreland being author Gary Weiss have been floating around for a long time. Various claims of "proof" have been made, none of which I have found convincing. At times I have believed one way, at times I have believed another way. I have investigated the claims to the best of my ability and I have been unable to find proof one way or the other.

An email I sent to Mantanmoreland and others has been widely quoted as evidence that I supposedly "know" this claim to be true. Such interpretations are malarky, and most of the people making the claims appear to me to be acting in bad faith. What I said, at a point in time, was that I believed it to be true that Mantanmoreland == Gary Weiss. This was specifically in the context of a conversation in which I was trying to get more evidence... a proof, one way or the other. Me believing at a point in time in an investigation that something was true, is not the same thing as an assertion that it is true, nor of an "admission" or anything else.

Mantanmoreland steadfastly denies being Gary Weiss. Ask him yourself if you want to know.

Related allegations that I am protecting a "friend" are nonsense. Mantanmoreland and I do not get along well at all.

Related allegations that I have some vested interest in the underlying content dispute are even worse nonsense. I have no opinion about "naked short selling". I have never sold a stock short in my life. I have no financial interests of any kind. If you read anything otherwise, or hints to that effect, on the overstock.com blog or elsewhere, well, I don't know was else to say but: nonsense.

Regarding the specific claim at issue here, whether Sami Harris and Mantanmoreland are the same user, I can say quite firmly that I do not believe it to be true. I have interacted (argued!) with both users over an extended period of time by private email, and I have not seen any reason to think it true. The offsite "evidence" relating to this comes from a highly questionable source, and furthermore strikes me as completely unpersuasive. For all we know, these are faked screenshots from someone who has engaged in a campaign of harassment and bad behavior (on-wiki and off-wiki) that has been really astounding to witness.

I have reviewed my email archives to look for similarities between the users. I have examined email headers. I have looked for textual similarities, time patterns, etc. I see nothing to lead me to a conclusion that Sami Harris and Mantanmoreland are the same user.

For these reasons, I do not believe it to be true that Mantanmoreland == Samiharris.

[Proabivouac]

Unbelievable.

These folks mimic to the point of parody the people saying Oldwindybear didn't equal Stillstudying, that Sevenofdiamonds didn't equal Nuclearumpf, etc. The evidence in this report is very strong, but apparently more is needed.

On the line is not only this one instance of abusive socking, but what remains of the integrity of the entire project.

What is being defended here isn't Wikipedia's right to follow its own policies and procedures without giving a hoot about what others think.

It's not even the right of prominent favored contributors ("the cabal") to break Wikipedia policies with impunity.

It's the right of the Jimbo and the cabal to look like asses, the right to be deceived by their own. Why anyone would want that right is beyond me. Better to remain blind, I suppose, than to admit that one once was.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac: Fri 15th February 2008, 4:03am

[Moulton]

Ultimately, what to believe or disbelieve comes down to one's religious preferences.

Some people prefer scientific/forensic evidence. Some people prefer to believe their idiosyncratic flights of fancy and dispense altogether with evidence-driven reasoning.

Some people who require scientific/forensic evidence conveniently decline to invest the time needed to examine it. The result is usually, "I have not seen evidence that convinces me." That's true, of course, since they haven't looked at the evidence that is offered for examination.

As for me, I don't know what to believe.

[guy]

Compare the treatment of Poetlister, where the evidence consists of:

* Runcorn once reverted vandalism in an article she edited extensively (hence my "Twinkle Twinkle" jibe).
* She occasionally voted in RfAs and AfDs on the same side as Runcorn or others regarded as Runcorn's socks (though never in the alleged mass vote-stackings like Ryulong's RfA where she would have been expected to, and if that were proof of anything how many well-known people would be blocked?)
* She had previously been linked with Newport by Kelly Martin, evidence that Kelly has now repudiated.

How is that more convincing than this?

[Poetlister]

This and the JoshuaZ case. Yes, I voted the same way as Runcorn on an RfA once; Runcorn pointed out that he'd been meatpuppeting for a banned user and he didn't deny it yet the RfA was overwhelming. Needless to say, the admin in question was among the most vindictive pursuers of both of us.

[The Wales Hunter]

Enjoy, everybody, perhaps we should all club together and buy a statue for a small Indian town:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=191676873

To quote the image caption:

"Mantanmoreland switched to Indian time at the same time W was in India"


This post has been edited by The Wales Hunter: Fri 15th February 2008, 6:35pm

[Piperdown]

Enjoy, everybody, perhaps we should all club together and buy a statue for a small Indian town:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=191676873

To quote the image caption:

"Mantanmoreland switched to Indian time at the same time W was in India"

Looks like a Jackson Pollack masterpiece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mantanm...d_date-time.png

It's always been Varkala for me, babe.

I googled MM, saw that on ASM, went to WP and Forbes for myself, and it was "Gary is MM" ever since. All is dancing after that was just entertainment and laughs, because I knew then, without even later seeing Wordy's IP evidence(s) that he's put together on-Wp,off-WP over a period of more than a year, well that was just "yup....yup....uh-huh....still?....jeez....whatanidiot...." for me.

When we get to see the 1,841 emails in Byrne's stash hopefully soon and in a very reliable source way, it will be more than laughs, it will be roflmao's all around. Byrne says on his "Deep Capture" blog (2/12/08) that GW's emails admit editing WP.

This post has been edited by Piperdown: Fri 15th February 2008, 6:54pm

[The Wales Hunter]

So the evidence that (should) piece Weiss and Mantanmoreland together was freely available all along. On Weiss' own blog and on Wiki. Wonder what Jimbo will have to say about all of this? And it was Jimbo who mentioned Weiss in his evidence, it looked like others were going to just focus on socks.

I want a full copy of that graph blown up as and framed!

This post has been edited by The Wales Hunter: Fri 15th February 2008, 6:51pm

[Piperdown]

So it seems the evidence that (should) piece Weiss and Mantanmoreland together was freely available all along. On Weiss' own blog and on Wiki. Wonder what Jimbo will have to say about all of this? And it was Jimbo who mentioned Weiss in his evidence, it looked like others were going to just focus on socks.

I'd like to see the godking's editing activity that occurred to blank the GW article's AFD. I've heard that Jimmy declared MM is not GW at that time, in a definitive statement that an inquiry (lol!) had determined that. This would have been around Oct-Nov 2006 as that is when that AFD occurred according to the recovered version posted here this past week.

This post has been edited by Piperdown: Fri 15th February 2008, 7:01pm

[GlassBeadGame]

Enjoy, everybody, perhaps we should all club together and buy a statue for a small Indian town:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=191676873

To quote the image caption:

"Mantanmoreland switched to Indian time at the same time W was in India"

I mostly glaze over with all this discussion of internal wiki-wankery. Clearly we are examining evidence presented/discarded by people who are incapable of making any reasoned evaluation of evidence and who are unable to fairly apply rules to "evidence" in any event. But having said that I have to admit the the graphic analysis of the edits showing a clear diurnal flip contemporaneous with travel half-way across the world in a nice piece of evidence. Better than the "process" is capable of making use of I'm afraid.

[No one of consequence]

"Mantanmoreland switched to Indian time at the same time W was in India"

I mostly glaze over with all this discussion of internal wiki-wankery. Clearly we are examining evidence presented/discarded by people who are incapable of making any reasoned evaluation of evidence and who are unable to fairly apply rules to "evidence" in any event. But having said that I have to admit the the graphic analysis of the edits showing a clear diurnal flip contemporaneous with travel half-way across the world in a nice piece of evidence. Better than the "process" is capable of making use of I'm afraid.

Wiki-wankery indeed. Although the "incapable of making reasoned evaluation" tars a lot of good-minded folks with an awfully broad brush. I for one have been aware of the allegations that GW=MM=SH but never took the time to undertake an exhaustive review. The Varkala Time Warp is truly a smoking gun and I suppose that people who are deeply into the controversy have known about it for some time, but as a casual reader of WR and a never-reader of any of the parties' blogs, I've never heard of it before. I am curious to see how Guy and Jimbo respond here, but don't be so "inside" yourselves that you assume that every fact you know was also known all along to all the Wikipedians involved.

[Piperdown]

The Varkala Time Warp is truly a smoking gun and I suppose that people who are deeply into the controversy have known about it for some time, but as a casual reader of WR and a never-reader of any of the parties' blogs, I've never heard of it before. I am curious to see how Guy and Jimbo respond here, but don't be so "inside" yourselves that you assume that every fact you know was also known all along to all the Wikipedians involved.

It's been known to every Arbcommer 2006-2007, and up to the toppermost of the wikimost. They all read ASM religiously, and they all tried to make sure other WP'ians didn't.

Now you know why. I found out, and verified on my own ability to click URL links lol, just by googling for few minutes. WP 'crats think we're stupid, us peasants toiling the article fields.

I doubt Jimmyhat's flipflopping show, but I do believe his statement that he and MM don't get along. I would imagine that his first interaction was a legal threat, based on what i can see happened during the oct-nov 2006 GW article AFD cover-up. I am reading between the lines, and guessing what i would have done if I were GW.

It's all so agatha christie....

This post has been edited by Piperdown: Fri 15th February 2008, 8:46pm

[guy]

The Varkala Time Warp is truly a smoking gun and I suppose that people who are deeply into the controversy have known about it for some time, but as a casual reader of WR and a never-reader of any of the parties' blogs, I've never heard of it before.

That just goes to show how evidence fails to percolate to those who need to know it. Can we set up a special notification service for our most influential readers like NOOC?