My Assistant
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| Daniel Brandt |
Mon 14th April 2008, 2:27pm
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Postmaster ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Regulars Posts: 2,473 Joined: Fri 24th Mar 2006, 12:23am Member No.: 77 |
The reason I collect real-life names of administrators is because someone, somewhere, has to take responsibility for the content on Wikipedia. The Wikimedia Foundation's general counsel claims that the Foundation is immune. A majority of the admins and higher use fake names. OTRS volunteers mostly use fake names too, but that hardly matters because OTRS is a black hole. Everything is catch-22 for the subject of a biography who prefers to not to have a biography. The desire to not have a bio on Wikipedia has to do with the respect that people should show for the right to live a private life. This right is recognized in Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (ECHR), and is also recognized by many state laws in the U.S.
I am only interested in sufficient information to establish an admin's real-world identity. That includes name, location, birthdate or age, and a pic. This information is basic and does not violate privacy. It's on your driver's license, it's on your school records, it's required to travel across international borders, it's on your employment applications, it's on your lease or your mortgage. What I'm doing on hivemind does not violate privacy. I'm simply trying to make an admin's actions on Wikipedia as accountable as that person's actions in every other aspect of their lives. The reason I'm doing this is because biographies of living people (BLP) on Wikipedia can be extremely privacy-invasive. That's true even you assume that every sentence and every phrase in the bio is completely factual. There is a massive amount of room in a BLP to select, spin and arrange factual material so that it presents a bad impression of that person. There's also the issue of defamatory information in a BLP, and the issue that if not currently defamatory, the BLP can instantly become defamatory at any point in time because editing is open to anyone. Then there's the issue that between Wikipedia and Google, the bio will be read by everyone with even a passing interest in the person. The people who read this information are told that Wikipedia is an "encyclopedia." If all admins on Wikipedia were required to use their real name, or at least all admins who edit any BLPs, then this would help. If BLPs could only be edited by those who use their real names, this would help even more. If there was a review process of a bio, followed by protection of the bio, this too would help. But none of these conditions exist. On top of that, there is no little or no respect for the subject of a BLP who asks that their bio be removed. By knowing the real-life identities of the editors of a bio, the subject is in a position to send them a cease and desist. If you don't know the identity, then you have to get the IP address from the Foundation, and then go to the Internet Service Provider (ISP). This could take up to two years in the U.S., and maybe a couple thousand dollars for an attorney. Add to that the problem that many editors aren't even located in the U.S., so now you have multiple jurisdictions, and multiple attorneys. I'm not exaggerating — this is what John Seigenthaler was facing with BellSouth before we found the perp in his case. Seigenthaler consulted with his attorneys, and called his buddy who was the head of BellSouth, and he had a pretty good fix on the situation. He already had the IP address from Wikipedia, because the perp edited without a user login. So Seigenthaler had the ear of telephone company execs and Congresspeople, and can afford attorneys, and can write columns that appear in USAToday, and he was amazed that all of this couldn't help him find the perp in the short term. What about people with less influence and fewer resources than Seigenthaler? What are they supposed to do? Two years and a couple thousand dollars per editor is not realistic. I had no choice but to start hivemind. Initially hivemind was focused entirely on specific editors who had given me a hard time on my bio, which I wanted removed since October 2005. There was no such thing as a BLP policy at that time! I was getting gang-raped by anonymous teenagers on Wikipedia, and got banned when I raised objections. In 2007 my bio slowly became less of a problem. I then made the transition to a new generation of hivemind that lists admins or higher, instead of just listing those who were editing my bio and throwing insults at me on the Talk pages. The version of hivemind I have now is being done for the next person who has trouble with getting their bio removed. What I'm doing with hivemind is basically a public service. On the issue of Internet privacy, one must first distinguish between the various roles that one plays on the Internet. If you play a passive role, such as using Google for research, then I support privacy. In fact, I've probably worked harder to support the privacy of Google users than anyone else. But if you are playing an active role, such as editing a so-called "encyclopedia," then you must be accountable for your edits because you're in a position to invade the privacy of others. In order to be accountable, your real-life identity should be on your Wikipedia user page. That is fundamental for me. To the extent that hivemind continues to be denounced by Wikipedians, it only proves to me that Wikipedia in its present form doesn't deserve to exist in the real world. |
Daniel Brandt Why I created the hivemind page Mon 14th April 2008, 2:27pm
NVS You collect information and display it per the con... Mon 14th April 2008, 2:35pm
Moulton One could beg the question... by doing so, are you... Mon 14th April 2008, 2:55pm

Lar
One could beg the question... by doing so, are yo... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:02pm

Moulton [quote name='Moulton' post='92652' date='Mon 14th ... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:22pm
UseOnceAndDestroy
You collect information and display it per the co... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:20pm
Lar
I am only interested in sufficient information to... Mon 14th April 2008, 2:55pm
Somey As NVS says, for some admins, you're doing the... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:32pm
guy
You collect information and display it per the co... Mon 14th April 2008, 2:56pm
Random832
What I'm doing with hivemind is basically a p... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:15pm
thekohser
[url=http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:27pm
Herschelkrustofsky Let me suggest a slightly different way of looking... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:16pm
NVS
Let me suggest a slightly different way of lookin... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:24pm

Random832
A central repository, as hivemind, kind of bypass... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:31pm

Somey I was using the quote to demonstrate that it is a ... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:39pm

Random832
So it's OK to use people who are being paid b... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:48pm

Random832 Since you asked (well, you didn't, but you att... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:08pm

Somey The EFF's existence itself demonstrates that a... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:27pm


Random832
legislators are just going to lump WP in with eve... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:50pm


Somey And how [i]is WP different (in kind - that it call... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:58pm

gomi The EFF's existence itself demonstrates that a... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:56pm

Random832
[quote name='Random832' post='92697' date='Mon 14... Mon 14th April 2008, 5:06pm

Somey 'waah, but it's so _expensive_, and the ju... Mon 14th April 2008, 5:19pm
Random832
Another observation: Daniel is insisting that Wik... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:26pm
NVS
As NVS says, for some admins, you're doing th... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:36pm
Somey For some, obsession may take the form of days or w... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:52pm
badlydrawnjeff Let's be realistic - WP:BLP only exists becaus... Mon 14th April 2008, 3:42pm
Lar
Let's be realistic - WP:BLP only exists becau... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:03pm
Somey Oh my: where to start? BLP an overreaction? How ab... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:16pm
badlydrawnjeff
In that the issues BLP is designed to face are a... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:09pm
Gold heart Anonymous speech, or criticism is perfectly legal,... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:13pm
Random832
Anonymous speech, or criticism is perfectly legal... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:33pm
Gold heart
Otherwise, what are they being held accountable ... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:40pm

Random832
Otherwise, what are they being held accountable... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:44pm

Gold heart
[quote name='Gold heart' post='92715' date='Mon 1... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:52pm
Somey Brandt's position is (as far as I can tell) th... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:47pm
Moulton To my mind, the only way to maintain an effective ... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:23pm
dogbiscuit
To my mind, the only way to maintain an effective... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:42pm
Rootology The only way to make BLP legally responsible under... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:32pm
Random832
The only way to make BLP legally responsible unde... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:41pm
Somey One could say that it differs in [i]degree because... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:52pm

Kato
[quote name='Random832' post='92717' date='Mon 14... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:55pm

Random832
Remember, since the site allows open editing, you... Mon 14th April 2008, 4:57pm

Somey How is this related to whether a site allows [i]op... Mon 14th April 2008, 5:09pm

Random832
[quote name='Random832' post='92727' date='Mon 14... Mon 14th April 2008, 5:23pm

Somey ...but what happens if you _don't_? If you mis... Mon 14th April 2008, 5:42pm

Random832
...but what happens if you _don't_? If you mi... Mon 14th April 2008, 6:01pm

Somey I thought that having a legal obligation when it... Mon 14th April 2008, 6:21pm

Random832
Exactly!
Fair enough.
---
As an aside - ... Mon 14th April 2008, 6:29pm
thekohser
Incidentally, all editors who do NOT use open pro... Mon 14th April 2008, 5:39pm
Moulton Just a reference point on what it takes to discove... Mon 14th April 2008, 5:34pm
MBisanz Mr. Brandt,
So the purpose of hivemind is to make ... Mon 14th April 2008, 8:00pm
Random832
[to FLIPSIDE] I think you could find a far better... Mon 14th April 2008, 8:12pm
Doc glasgow Without commenting on Brandt's tactics, I... Mon 14th April 2008, 8:44pm
Moulton I certainly would not add negative information - o... Mon 14th April 2008, 9:19pm
SPA troll account Sorry if I am late to this party, but as a noob I... Mon 14th April 2008, 10:58pm
UseOnceAndDestroy
Or is it the case that the much lauded "BLP:... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:17pm
Amarkov
At risk of being crucified for this position, isn... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:19pm
SPA troll account
Bias against someone is not only non-neutral, it ... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:36pm

Random832
[quote name='Amarkov' post='92863' date='Mon 14th... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:37pm

Moulton [b]An important rule of thumb when writing biograp... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:45pm

Random832
[quote name='Moulton' post='92858' date='Mon 14th... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:53pm

SPA troll account
The WP:BLP policy is about not doing harm to the ... Tue 15th April 2008, 12:06am

Somey How common is this horrifyingly bad misreading of ... Tue 15th April 2008, 12:30am

Somey If it is [b]not born of legal concern, the BLP pol... Tue 15th April 2008, 12:46am
dogbiscuit
It's not an issue of what the law says. Bias ... Tue 15th April 2008, 12:15am
SPA troll account
...and isn't that the point? With the Wikiped... Tue 15th April 2008, 12:35am
dogbiscuit
Which brings us to this question: when is an ... Tue 15th April 2008, 12:54am
Moulton From WP:BLP...
Mon 14th April 2008, 11:09pm
Moulton Since I know there are some admins reading this th... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:28pm
Kato This thread is getting a lot of posts and a lot of... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:41pm
SPA troll account
Wikipediots turn up here wanting to know about ho... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:52pm
Kato
Wikipediots turn up here wanting to know about h... Mon 14th April 2008, 11:54pm
Moulton If you want to consider all harm from a BLP (not t... Tue 15th April 2008, 12:15am
Moulton Usually an article is a biography if the name of t... Tue 15th April 2008, 1:24am
Random832 Question:
That's wikipedia's definition... Tue 15th April 2008, 1:47am
Moulton To fit the definition, the demand has to be made b... Tue 15th April 2008, 2:02am
MBisanz Erm, I believe Mr. Brandt's words were:
... Tue 15th April 2008, 2:45am
Moulton The guy should have been a lawyer.
So now we ha... Tue 15th April 2008, 2:54am
Lar
The guy should have been a lawyer.
Who? MBisan... Tue 15th April 2008, 2:58am

Moulton The guy should have been a lawyer.
Who? MBisanz?... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:02am
Random832
The guy should have been a lawyer.
So now we h... Tue 15th April 2008, 2:59am
MBisanz Actually Lar, I didn't get into the law school... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:02am
taiwopanfob I'd say Mr. Brandt's issue would center ar... Tue 15th April 2008, 4:24am
Somey In that context is it not arguable that the entire... Tue 15th April 2008, 4:48am
Moulton The plaintiff would have to convince a judge (or j... Tue 15th April 2008, 11:53am
dtobias
The idea that you're going to be able to walk... Tue 15th April 2008, 2:59pm
ColScott
[quote name='Somey' post='92974' date='Tue 15th A... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:38pm
Gold heart
This line of legal argument is about as strong as... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:41pm
Moulton There are minors who are WP admins?!? Tue 15th April 2008, 3:04am
Aloft
There are minors who are WP admins?!?
Absolut... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:10am
Lar
[quote name='Moulton' post='92940' date='Mon 14th... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:17am
Aloft
[quote name='Moulton' post='92940' date='Mon 14t... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:45am
Moulton Wait a sec!
I can understand minors being adm... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:20am
Moulton Fraud has a technical meaning that might be diffic... Tue 15th April 2008, 4:36am
Daniel Brandt Wikipedia is an "attractive nuisance." T... Tue 15th April 2008, 5:30am
Random832
Wikipedia is an "[url=http://en.wikipedia.or... Tue 15th April 2008, 2:02pm
Moulton Lawyers are gifted at playing legal chessgames. Tue 15th April 2008, 2:09pm
Rootology Does the WMF have the financial capability to with... Tue 15th April 2008, 3:58pm
Moulton Does the WMF have the financial capability to with... Tue 15th April 2008, 4:12pm![]() ![]() |
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