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> Why I created the hivemind page
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Daniel Brandt
post Mon 14th April 2008, 2:27pm
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The reason I collect real-life names of administrators is because someone, somewhere, has to take responsibility for the content on Wikipedia. The Wikimedia Foundation's general counsel claims that the Foundation is immune. A majority of the admins and higher use fake names. OTRS volunteers mostly use fake names too, but that hardly matters because OTRS is a black hole. Everything is catch-22 for the subject of a biography who prefers to not to have a biography. The desire to not have a bio on Wikipedia has to do with the respect that people should show for the right to live a private life. This right is recognized in Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (ECHR), and is also recognized by many state laws in the U.S.

I am only interested in sufficient information to establish an admin's real-world identity. That includes name, location, birthdate or age, and a pic. This information is basic and does not violate privacy. It's on your driver's license, it's on your school records, it's required to travel across international borders, it's on your employment applications, it's on your lease or your mortgage. What I'm doing on hivemind does not violate privacy. I'm simply trying to make an admin's actions on Wikipedia as accountable as that person's actions in every other aspect of their lives.

The reason I'm doing this is because biographies of living people (BLP) on Wikipedia can be extremely privacy-invasive. That's true even you assume that every sentence and every phrase in the bio is completely factual. There is a massive amount of room in a BLP to select, spin and arrange factual material so that it presents a bad impression of that person.

There's also the issue of defamatory information in a BLP, and the issue that if not currently defamatory, the BLP can instantly become defamatory at any point in time because editing is open to anyone.

Then there's the issue that between Wikipedia and Google, the bio will be read by everyone with even a passing interest in the person. The people who read this information are told that Wikipedia is an "encyclopedia."

If all admins on Wikipedia were required to use their real name, or at least all admins who edit any BLPs, then this would help. If BLPs could only be edited by those who use their real names, this would help even more. If there was a review process of a bio, followed by protection of the bio, this too would help. But none of these conditions exist. On top of that, there is no little or no respect for the subject of a BLP who asks that their bio be removed.

By knowing the real-life identities of the editors of a bio, the subject is in a position to send them a cease and desist. If you don't know the identity, then you have to get the IP address from the Foundation, and then go to the Internet Service Provider (ISP). This could take up to two years in the U.S., and maybe a couple thousand dollars for an attorney. Add to that the problem that many editors aren't even located in the U.S., so now you have multiple jurisdictions, and multiple attorneys. I'm not exaggerating — this is what John Seigenthaler was facing with BellSouth before we found the perp in his case. Seigenthaler consulted with his attorneys, and called his buddy who was the head of BellSouth, and he had a pretty good fix on the situation. He already had the IP address from Wikipedia, because the perp edited without a user login. So Seigenthaler had the ear of telephone company execs and Congresspeople, and can afford attorneys, and can write columns that appear in USAToday, and he was amazed that all of this couldn't help him find the perp in the short term. What about people with less influence and fewer resources than Seigenthaler? What are they supposed to do?

Two years and a couple thousand dollars per editor is not realistic. I had no choice but to start hivemind. Initially hivemind was focused entirely on specific editors who had given me a hard time on my bio, which I wanted removed since October 2005. There was no such thing as a BLP policy at that time! I was getting gang-raped by anonymous teenagers on Wikipedia, and got banned when I raised objections. In 2007 my bio slowly became less of a problem. I then made the transition to a new generation of hivemind that lists admins or higher, instead of just listing those who were editing my bio and throwing insults at me on the Talk pages. The version of hivemind I have now is being done for the next person who has trouble with getting their bio removed.

What I'm doing with hivemind is basically a public service. On the issue of Internet privacy, one must first distinguish between the various roles that one plays on the Internet. If you play a passive role, such as using Google for research, then I support privacy. In fact, I've probably worked harder to support the privacy of Google users than anyone else. But if you are playing an active role, such as editing a so-called "encyclopedia," then you must be accountable for your edits because you're in a position to invade the privacy of others. In order to be accountable, your real-life identity should be on your Wikipedia user page.

That is fundamental for me. To the extent that hivemind continues to be denounced by Wikipedians, it only proves to me that Wikipedia in its present form doesn't deserve to exist in the real world.
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Posts in this topic
Daniel Brandt   Why I created the hivemind page   Mon 14th April 2008, 2:27pm
NVS   You collect information and display it per the con...   Mon 14th April 2008, 2:35pm
Moulton   One could beg the question... by doing so, are you...   Mon 14th April 2008, 2:55pm
Lar   One could beg the question... by doing so, are yo...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:02pm
Moulton   [quote name='Moulton' post='92652' date='Mon 14th ...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:22pm
UseOnceAndDestroy   You collect information and display it per the co...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:20pm
Lar   I am only interested in sufficient information to...   Mon 14th April 2008, 2:55pm
Somey   As NVS says, for some admins, you're doing the...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:32pm
guy   You collect information and display it per the co...   Mon 14th April 2008, 2:56pm
Random832   What I'm doing with hivemind is basically a p...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:15pm
thekohser   [url=http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:27pm
Herschelkrustofsky   Let me suggest a slightly different way of looking...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:16pm
NVS   Let me suggest a slightly different way of lookin...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:24pm
Random832   A central repository, as hivemind, kind of bypass...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:31pm
Somey   I was using the quote to demonstrate that it is a ...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:39pm
Random832   So it's OK to use people who are being paid b...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:48pm
Random832   Since you asked (well, you didn't, but you att...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:08pm
Somey   The EFF's existence itself demonstrates that a...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:27pm
Random832   legislators are just going to lump WP in with eve...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:50pm
Somey   And how [i]is WP different (in kind - that it call...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:58pm
gomi   The EFF's existence itself demonstrates that a...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:56pm
Random832   [quote name='Random832' post='92697' date='Mon 14...   Mon 14th April 2008, 5:06pm
Somey   'waah, but it's so _expensive_, and the ju...   Mon 14th April 2008, 5:19pm
Random832   Another observation: Daniel is insisting that Wik...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:26pm
NVS   As NVS says, for some admins, you're doing th...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:36pm
Somey   For some, obsession may take the form of days or w...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:52pm
badlydrawnjeff   Let's be realistic - WP:BLP only exists becaus...   Mon 14th April 2008, 3:42pm
Lar   Let's be realistic - WP:BLP only exists becau...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:03pm
Somey   Oh my: where to start? BLP an overreaction? How ab...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:16pm
badlydrawnjeff   In that the issues BLP is designed to face are a...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:09pm
Gold heart   Anonymous speech, or criticism is perfectly legal,...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:13pm
Random832   Anonymous speech, or criticism is perfectly legal...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:33pm
Gold heart   Otherwise, what are they being held accountable ...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:40pm
Random832   Otherwise, what are they being held accountable...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:44pm
Gold heart   [quote name='Gold heart' post='92715' date='Mon 1...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:52pm
Somey   Brandt's position is (as far as I can tell) th...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:47pm
Moulton   To my mind, the only way to maintain an effective ...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:23pm
dogbiscuit   To my mind, the only way to maintain an effective...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:42pm
Rootology   The only way to make BLP legally responsible under...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:32pm
Random832   The only way to make BLP legally responsible unde...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:41pm
Somey   One could say that it differs in [i]degree because...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:52pm
Kato   [quote name='Random832' post='92717' date='Mon 14...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:55pm
Random832   Remember, since the site allows open editing, you...   Mon 14th April 2008, 4:57pm
Somey   How is this related to whether a site allows [i]op...   Mon 14th April 2008, 5:09pm
Random832   [quote name='Random832' post='92727' date='Mon 14...   Mon 14th April 2008, 5:23pm
Somey   ...but what happens if you _don't_? If you mis...   Mon 14th April 2008, 5:42pm
Random832   ...but what happens if you _don't_? If you mi...   Mon 14th April 2008, 6:01pm
Somey   I thought that having a legal obligation when it...   Mon 14th April 2008, 6:21pm
Random832   Exactly! Fair enough. --- As an aside - ...   Mon 14th April 2008, 6:29pm
thekohser   Incidentally, all editors who do NOT use open pro...   Mon 14th April 2008, 5:39pm
Moulton   Just a reference point on what it takes to discove...   Mon 14th April 2008, 5:34pm
MBisanz   Mr. Brandt, So the purpose of hivemind is to make ...   Mon 14th April 2008, 8:00pm
Random832   [to FLIPSIDE] I think you could find a far better...   Mon 14th April 2008, 8:12pm
Doc glasgow   Without commenting on Brandt's tactics, I...   Mon 14th April 2008, 8:44pm
Moulton   I certainly would not add negative information - o...   Mon 14th April 2008, 9:19pm
SPA troll account   Sorry if I am late to this party, but as a noob I...   Mon 14th April 2008, 10:58pm
UseOnceAndDestroy   Or is it the case that the much lauded "BLP:...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:17pm
Amarkov   At risk of being crucified for this position, isn...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:19pm
SPA troll account   Bias against someone is not only non-neutral, it ...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:36pm
Random832   [quote name='Amarkov' post='92863' date='Mon 14th...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:37pm
Moulton   [b]An important rule of thumb when writing biograp...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:45pm
Random832   [quote name='Moulton' post='92858' date='Mon 14th...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:53pm
SPA troll account   The WP:BLP policy is about not doing harm to the ...   Tue 15th April 2008, 12:06am
Somey   How common is this horrifyingly bad misreading of ...   Tue 15th April 2008, 12:30am
Somey   If it is [b]not born of legal concern, the BLP pol...   Tue 15th April 2008, 12:46am
dogbiscuit   It's not an issue of what the law says. Bias ...   Tue 15th April 2008, 12:15am
SPA troll account   ...and isn't that the point? With the Wikiped...   Tue 15th April 2008, 12:35am
dogbiscuit   Which brings us to this question: when is an ...   Tue 15th April 2008, 12:54am
Moulton   From WP:BLP...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:09pm
Moulton   Since I know there are some admins reading this th...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:28pm
Kato   This thread is getting a lot of posts and a lot of...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:41pm
SPA troll account   Wikipediots turn up here wanting to know about ho...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:52pm
Kato   Wikipediots turn up here wanting to know about h...   Mon 14th April 2008, 11:54pm
Moulton   If you want to consider all harm from a BLP (not t...   Tue 15th April 2008, 12:15am
Moulton   Usually an article is a biography if the name of t...   Tue 15th April 2008, 1:24am
Random832   Question: That's wikipedia's definition...   Tue 15th April 2008, 1:47am
Moulton   To fit the definition, the demand has to be made b...   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:02am
MBisanz   Erm, I believe Mr. Brandt's words were: ...   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:45am
Moulton   The guy should have been a lawyer. So now we ha...   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:54am
Lar   The guy should have been a lawyer. Who? MBisan...   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:58am
Moulton   The guy should have been a lawyer. Who? MBisanz?...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:02am
Random832   The guy should have been a lawyer. So now we h...   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:59am
MBisanz   Actually Lar, I didn't get into the law school...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:02am
taiwopanfob   I'd say Mr. Brandt's issue would center ar...   Tue 15th April 2008, 4:24am
Somey   In that context is it not arguable that the entire...   Tue 15th April 2008, 4:48am
Moulton   The plaintiff would have to convince a judge (or j...   Tue 15th April 2008, 11:53am
dtobias   The idea that you're going to be able to walk...   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:59pm
ColScott   [quote name='Somey' post='92974' date='Tue 15th A...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:38pm
Gold heart   This line of legal argument is about as strong as...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:41pm
Moulton   There are minors who are WP admins?!?   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:04am
Aloft   There are minors who are WP admins?!? Absolut...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:10am
Lar   [quote name='Moulton' post='92940' date='Mon 14th...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:17am
Aloft   [quote name='Moulton' post='92940' date='Mon 14t...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:45am
Moulton   Wait a sec! I can understand minors being adm...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:20am
Moulton   Fraud has a technical meaning that might be diffic...   Tue 15th April 2008, 4:36am
Daniel Brandt   Wikipedia is an "attractive nuisance." T...   Tue 15th April 2008, 5:30am
Random832   Wikipedia is an "[url=http://en.wikipedia.or...   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:02pm
Moulton   Lawyers are gifted at playing legal chessgames.   Tue 15th April 2008, 2:09pm
Rootology   Does the WMF have the financial capability to with...   Tue 15th April 2008, 3:58pm
Moulton   Does the WMF have the financial capability to with...   Tue 15th April 2008, 4:12pm
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