More sanctimonious bullshit from FT2, “Longish answer I'm afraid” Options

[Peter Damian]

On his talk page in reply to a question by Carcharoth, who by now wishes he’d never asked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FT2

you'd probably be surprised how much I work in the background saying "no, that's not okay, change or else bad things are probably going to happen if you don't change.

I am not in the least surprised.

Which is why you'll see my arb election wasn't just supported by some "usual suspects", but by a wide range, including an exceptional number of well known "difficult" or blocked users (Rambutan/Porcupine, Jeeny, Vintagekits, and both ScienceApologist and Whig on both sides of the pseudoscience issue),

Well it wasn’t supported by me. And the ones on the science side of the pseudoscience issue still don’t know about FT2’s extensive involvement in the NLP cult articles. The editors who did question it (none of them were me) were blocked far too quickly.

It's part of my view that we can improve this project and that this will feed through into better content

Perhaps he could work on the Medieval philosophy article?

Although Giano is popular and JzG less so, talking to JzG I find he accepts more readily if he does wrong

That’s all right then.

Ultimately bad conduct drives others away

Like experts on medieval philosophy.

Now months and years later, given that response to date, we're much more into "change or block".

No, we were always into that.

Longish answer I'm afraid, but hopefully a readable one.
It's ultimately about every person's use of language, that's not helping to collaborate, but used to attack, upset, undermine, or corrode. Its about a culture amongst some established groups and users (on different sides of things) that this is okay and somehow praiseworthy even if it adds nothing to content and discourages other users from involvement. It applies completely to other editors too, and you'd probably be surprised how much I work in the background saying "no, that's not okay, change or else bad things are probably going to happen if you don't change. Talk to me, get help if you need it, ask others to advise, but don't do it." A lot of the time people understand it's trying to help them. Those who can't or won't, it eventually ends up on-wiki as warnings instead.
I give hugely of time and effort to do this - I put hours that as a living being, I will have only once in my life, to try and coax and convey that such things have to change on Wikipedia. Admin standards, user standards, dialog standards. All matter. Not doing so brings unfair blocks, unfair harassment claims, hurt feelings, and many other dysfunctions.
I'm after improvement, not placebos. And yes I do and have spoken to JgZ in private, who tries to listen more than Giano does, and has fewer direct sanctions than Giano does, which is why I have not had to act on his case yet. I hope I won't have to, but he knows (it's no secret) that if my judgement was that I had to, I would. I also spoke several times to Giano in private too, and for the same exact reason, to try and defuze the matter. And many others. Which is why you'll see my arb election wasn't just supported by some "usual suspects", but by a wide range, including an exceptional number of well known "difficult" or blocked users (Rambutan/Porcupine, Jeeny, Vintagekits, and both ScienceApologist and Whig on both sides of the pseudoscience issue), even by users I'd warned or blocked or who had been sanctioned at ArbCom, and so on. I'm willing to put the work in myself to try and help those who find it hard, whilst I feel they might be willing to change.
It's part of my view that we can improve this project and that this will feed through into better content and proportionately less need for disputes (including less use of extreme measures like arbitration) over time. As others do bot work and vandalism patrol for the community, I try to help or deal with tough cases in the background. Sometimes one can, sometimes one can't. One can always hope and try.
For JzG, I have had occasion to talk with him. That's his and my private communication, as my email dialogs with Giano remain his and my private communication. Respect that. But yes, they exist, and on identical grounds. However Giano is at a point where the community has brought him to Arbitration. I didn't; no arbitrator did. The community did. More than once, for the same issues. That's not "pure chance". The latest request brought no less than an unprecedented four experienced users stating these problems were real ones. I take that seriously, as a sign that multiple users assess his conduct as not-okay. Reviewing, I agree.
Although Giano is popular and JzG less so, talking to JzG I find he accepts more readily if he does wrong, and at times has taken steps to avoid it - asking others, venting in ways that are less harmful to the wiki, and so on. I'm working to help, there. Talking to Giano I mostly find bluster, games, and denial. He's never once said "yes, if I have an unhelpful negative effect on others enjoyment then thats something I would like to learn to avoid". That is more of concern. Ultimately bad conduct drives others away and poisons the well (as Doc G says). It ripples out. For those reasons it's not okay. The communal norm says good manner from one to another, good dialog, collaboration not attack, is important. In the entire existence of the project not one edit has been communally adopted long-term to say that it's okay for some and not others.
Giano has had my comments, like you say. I don't even want to polarize this "about Giano"; that just makes him feel attacked. It's about all who treat others roughly verbally and all who shout when called to account. Thats many users, not just one or two. Giano's an editor who has been directed to treat others better; when he does I have no other interest in him. It's the community's right to say that certain conduct is not okay. He's had arbitration cases and expressions of concern since 2006 or earlier. Now it's basically, "do it, or accept that there are sanctions if you don't or can't". If you can suggest any way to help him not unhelpfully mishandle or bully others or do the harm he does by his manner of speech to other users, I'd jump at it. I'd put the work in myself (and have) if he'd wish it or show a sign he would change it.
But it has to work, not just be "empty promises", and has to address his style of speech to other users. Do that, however it can be done, and I'd be happy beyond belief. Don't, and further sanctions are probably inevitable. The time when that wasn't the case, Giano decided to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. For years, not just months. God knows how many decent editors who didn't like that style, he drove off (hurt, discouraged) through his bullying tone and cleverness with borderlining and speech in that time, or how many were encouraged in the "let's attack others" habit from him. So that's now gone. Now months and years later, given that response to date, we're much more into "change or block". It's not okay, and Giano must finally deal with it.
Can we help him? Only if he lets us. FT2 (Talk | email) 11:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Thu 17th April 2008, 2:16pm

[Jacina]

odd, Riskers comments aren't on the talk space anymore, and nothing in the history mentions them being removed...

[Moulton]

odd, Riskers comments aren't on the talk space anymore, and nothing in the history mentions them being removed...

Here it is...

# (cur) (last) 22:54, 17 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (837 bytes) (I can no longer stand the fucking place!) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:49, 17 April 2008 Doc glasgow (Talk | contribs) (10,652 bytes) (→Hear Hear: a long rant) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:19, 17 April 2008 Privatemusings (Talk | contribs) (7,863 bytes) (→Hear Hear: fix sig) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:19, 17 April 2008 Privatemusings (Talk | contribs) (7,788 bytes) (→Effects on the community: I agree, for what they may be worth.....) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 21:59, 17 April 2008 Risker (Talk | contribs) (7,743 bytes) (adding) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 07:14, 17 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (837 bytes) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 23:31, 16 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (empty) (Enough for one day!) (undo)

[Giano]

odd, Riskers comments aren't on the talk space anymore, and nothing in the history mentions them being removed...

Here it is...

# (cur) (last) 22:54, 17 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (837 bytes) (I can no longer stand the fucking place!) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:49, 17 April 2008 Doc glasgow (Talk | contribs) (10,652 bytes) (→Hear Hear: a long rant) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:19, 17 April 2008 Privatemusings (Talk | contribs) (7,863 bytes) (→Hear Hear: fix sig) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:19, 17 April 2008 Privatemusings (Talk | contribs) (7,788 bytes) (→Effects on the community: I agree, for what they may be worth.....) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 21:59, 17 April 2008 Risker (Talk | contribs) (7,743 bytes) (adding) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 07:14, 17 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (837 bytes) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 23:31, 16 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (empty) (Enough for one day!) (undo)

[Giano]

odd, Riskers comments aren't on the talk space anymore, and nothing in the history mentions them being removed...

Here it is...

# (cur) (last) 22:54, 17 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (837 bytes) (I can no longer stand the fucking place!) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:49, 17 April 2008 Doc glasgow (Talk | contribs) (10,652 bytes) (→Hear Hear: a long rant) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:19, 17 April 2008 Privatemusings (Talk | contribs) (7,863 bytes) (→Hear Hear: fix sig) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 22:19, 17 April 2008 Privatemusings (Talk | contribs) (7,788 bytes) (→Effects on the community: I agree, for what they may be worth.....) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 21:59, 17 April 2008 Risker (Talk | contribs) (7,743 bytes) (adding) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 07:14, 17 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (837 bytes) (undo)
# (cur) (last) 23:31, 16 April 2008 Giano II (Talk | contribs) (empty) (Enough for one day!) (undo)

I removed all the comments from my talk- page last night in a fit of daft petulant temper, which I regret. I should have left Risker's as it was well intended and very true but when I saw Doc Glasgow starting yet another long post, something just temporarily snapped. I knew FT2 would have been bound to arrive, and I think I would probably put a fist through my screen, if I have to read any more of his half-truths and bizarre distortions of fact. Where he has been concerned I have surprised myself at my own civility and self control, at least on Wiki, a few more choice adjectives have been expressed in email. Funny thing civility, I don't think I have ever really attacked anyone as in: "You fucking bastard" but I have on more than a few occasions rather pointedly referred someone to their own wiki-activities, or more often lack of Wiki-activities, and of course if one's wiki-activities are, to put it kindly, "lacklustre" - I suppose that person may be embarrassed at having that pointed out - but is that incivility, to ask someone who professes to be contributing to an encyclopedia, exactly what it is they are contributing?

I have read quite enough rubbish and drivel about myself to last a lifetime over the last few days. If no one has already perhaps someone will re-post Risker's comment and Doc's, anyway they are in the history. I have not looked at Wikipedia today, and probably won't for a while. I need to regain some self-control and equilibrium. I suspect, strongly, there is a lot more to this story than has even been supposed here on Wikipedia Review, and I have a feeling that will become immediately apparent if they succeed in ridding themselves of me. I'll keep it to myself though, as it will just be another "Giano conspiracy theory" to beat me over the head with, and I don't want to be banned in case I have to deal with that issue.

I appreciate the support here, it was actually the battered wife comment here, that made me think for a moment, but that implies self-pity, something I hate. I just need a few minutes to lick my wounds and then I will be back to normal. I have some pages to finish, but I don't think I'll start any more. Perhaps I'll become a career Wikipedia chatterer like those so admired there. I can't help thinking what a pity that some of those with such time on their hands, and skill at typing and commenting don't expend half as much energy on writing a page as they do on me. This is all too long now, it is beginning to look like one of FT2's posts, so I'll stop.

Thanks for the moral boosting you do here.

Giano

[Count DeMonet]

it was actually the battered wife comment here, that made me think for a moment, but that implies self-pity, something I hate.

FTR Giano, I had no implication of self pity in my mind when I drew the battered wife simile. I was merely drawing a parallel to willfully remaining in a no-win situation detrimental to your own well being, in the mistaken belief that you're ever going to effect a change. FWIW I don't think that implies self pity in the slightest. Stubbornness certainly, but self pity?, no, not at all.

I think it'll do you good to walk away from all that crap for the time being, I only hope (against hope) that your adversaries don't interpret it as a victory (as pyrrhic as it is).