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> Giano calls out FT2 for harassment, Uh oh
Moulton
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 11:06am
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Giano, if you think ArbCom is likely to show you to the door, you might want to work on your Dithyramb for the big production number.

Here is the one I used...

QUOTE(Moulton's Dithyramb)



Barsoom Tork is my name, and I rode on the paintball train,
Til so much rivalry came and tore up the tracks again.
In the fall of skandalon, we were rollin, just trollin for bait.
I took the train to Wiki, that hell, it was a time I remember, oh so well.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Back with Dave at Epiphany, and one day he said to me,
"Moulton, quick, come see, a-there goes Filll on a spree!"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood, and I don't care if Hrafn's no good.
Just take what ya need and efface the rest,
But they should never have wiped out the very best.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Like my father before me, I'm a working man,
And like ZayZay before me, I took a rebel stand.
Well, he was just pissed off, proud and brave,
But paintball laid him in his grave,
I swear by the verse below my feet,
You can't raise the Torkel back up when its in defeat.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

CopyClef 2007 Joan Baez and Barsoom Tork Associates.
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Giano
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 12:49pm
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 12:06pm) *

Giano, if you think ArbCom is likely to show you to the door, you might want to work on your Dithyramb for the big production number.

Here is the one I used...

QUOTE(Moulton's Dithyramb)



Barsoom Tork is my name, and I rode on the paintball train,
Til so much rivalry came and tore up the tracks again.
In the fall of skandalon, we were rollin, just trollin for bait.
I took the train to Wiki, that hell, it was a time I remember, oh so well.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Back with Dave at Epiphany, and one day he said to me,
"Moulton, quick, come see, a-there goes Filll on a spree!"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood, and I don't care if Hrafn's no good.
Just take what ya need and efface the rest,
But they should never have wiped out the very best.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Like my father before me, I'm a working man,
And like ZayZay before me, I took a rebel stand.
Well, he was just pissed off, proud and brave,
But paintball laid him in his grave,
I swear by the verse below my feet,
You can't raise the Torkel back up when its in defeat.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

CopyClef 2007 Joan Baez and Barsoom Tork Associates.



I don't sing, but I'm sure you are very musical, I don't think the Arbcom have selected a precise date, per-se. However, there is a forthcoming unhappy event that certain people don't want me to be arownd for.

Giano
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wikiwhistle
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 12:53pm
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QUOTE(Giano @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 1:49pm) *


I don't sing, but I'm sure you are very musical, I don't think the Arbcom have selected a precise date, per-se. However, there is a forthcoming unhappy event that certain people don't want me to be arownd for.

Giano


Oh, what's that? smile.gif
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Moulton
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 1:15pm
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QUOTE(Giano @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 8:49am) *
I don't sing, but I'm sure you are very musical...

I have no musical talent whatsoever. I can't carry a tune, can't play a musical instrument, nor can I compose music.

I rely on MIDI for musical accompaniment.

Click here for the MIDI accompaniment to Moulton's Dithyramb.
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Peter Damian
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 3:37pm
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QUOTE(Giano @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 11:50am) *

No, bugger it, I can't speak it.
Giano


OK lesson 2. Let’s look on in wonder and learningment at FT2’s most recent post. Two uses of the word ‘communal’, ‘many users’, 'tens of thousands of users' and more, to show how universal the support is for FT2’s magnanimous and selfless efforts. Note the whole sentences enclosed in quotes, as if they were the words of other wise and good people on the project, who are shaking their heads in sadness (in fact FT2 has made these quotes up, but no one is going to notice).

References to the harm this is doing to the community. People being driven off by Giano, ‘human beings being hurt’ (you see, anyone can use the quote trick too). “There are no side in this”.

So it’s easy to “speak FT2”. The only problem is that it makes any intelligent human being want to throw up in a bucket. The bit that begins “The moment he can say to someone ….” is actually so vomit-inducing I am going to head for the toilets.



QUOTE

Sadly there have been solid, consistent attempts to respect this. To discuss as a human being, to make allowances, to plead and try to help and to recognize strengths and weaknesses, constantly. Many users, not least myself since December. Problem's been they all got ignored. I stood back and did nothing, let others handle things this time. That got this and this. No recognition of human beings being hurt, and project members driven off. Compare and contrast that when Bishonen posts what looks like real evidence and says I'm wrong, I went immediately to check if she's right, and was completely prepared to take that concern up on her behalf if she's right and I'm mistaken. (She wasn't in this case, but anyone can make a mistake. It was in good faith.) That's what's overlooked; there's no sides in this. It's just that if you drive off or intimidate everyone else, then people who can ignore attacks will probably be the ones who step back in. I stepped back completely until I actually saw a user being driven off the wiki. Since other attempts had failed, it ends up as simply recognizing and addressing how his stance impacts the project. Understanding of the need is what's sought, that'll change everything, obviously. It's a bit like a sea-wall... whether the waves lap on the beach, or hurl themselves against it, the sea-wall isn't "attacking" the waves. It's just drawing a firm line. The harder Giano plays the more he'll bounce; the more he listens to the communal need the less he'll bounce (or even get any admin attention at all). The moment he can say to someone "please help me to avoid problems" or "is this a sensible post", and really wants to avoid them (or says "message heard" rather than leap to conclusions), he'll have all the help he needs. Simple equation. He has support, if he'd just listen to it. Unfortunately (and I wish it were otherwise), right now the situation is "personal appeals and explanations haven't actually worked from any user, nor has any form of appeal".
The only thing being said, when all's said and done, is something I hope we can all agree on. There's tens or hundreds of thousands of users and two thousand admins who have the communally agreed right to reasonable dialog without unhelpful hostile assumptions, and they count too. Not accepting other users saying so, driving people away, then complaining at the admins you do get..... hmm. FT2 (Talk | email) 15:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Wed 23rd April 2008, 3:38pm
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wikiwhistle
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 3:46pm
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QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:37pm) *

People being driven off by Giano, ‘human beings being hurt’


As opposed to animals being hurt? Who of course love it really rolleyes.gif
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Peter Damian
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 3:52pm
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QUOTE(wikiwhistle @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:46pm) *

QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:37pm) *

People being driven off by Giano, ‘human beings being hurt’


As opposed to animals being hurt? Who of course love it really rolleyes.gif


We need only quote the words of the Wise One himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FT2/asa

QUOTE
The notion that all sexual acts with animals are abusive is usually backed by the idea that animals can in no way consent to what is happening and that humans abuse the position they have in relation to the animal to force them in to participating. However, animals are considered to be able to find sexual contact with humans pleasurable


This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Wed 23rd April 2008, 3:55pm
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Peter Damian
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:10pm
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Oh but what’s this. Giano has not heeded these words at all but has instead blanked them

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207629018

with the comment (removing rantings of a disruptive troll)

Did he not notice the warning of the sea waves “bashing against the solid sea wall”, at all? “That’s not OK”.

But wait, FT2 has reverted back, like the solid sea wall that he is. Or is he the waves and Giano King Canute. All these metaphors confuse. Meanwhile Carcaroth has butted in and objected that there are not 'tens of thousands' of users at all, and that the number of solid, quality contributors is more like 5. Shortly to be 4, surely, after this showdown.

QUOTE
You said ''"tens or hundreds of thousands of users"'' - actually, I doubt this, and your wide range from tens to hundreds shows that you are wildly speculating (as are all of us). The real figure you want there is the number of people who interact with admins, or whose activity rises to the level where admins get involved. Also, there is unseen damage, where people silently leave, and there is unseen activity as well, where people quietly edit and never need to interact with admins or even other users. I suspect that the active, interacting core of established editors is smaller than people realise. Anyway, thanks, as always, for your replies here. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 15:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:18pm
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wikiwhistle
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:19pm
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QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:52pm) *


QUOTE
(FT2)The notion that all sexual acts with animals are abusive is usually backed by the idea that animals can in no way consent to what is happening and that humans abuse the position they have in relation to the animal to force them in to participating. However, animals are considered to be able to find sexual contact with humans pleasurable




According to the perpetrators.
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Peter Damian
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:21pm
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QUOTE(wikiwhistle @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 5:19pm) *

QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:52pm) *


QUOTE
(FT2)The notion that all sexual acts with animals are abusive is usually backed by the idea that animals can in no way consent to what is happening and that humans abuse the position they have in relation to the animal to force them in to participating. However, animals are considered to be able to find sexual contact with humans pleasurable




According to the perpetrators.


Cease this absurd and ridiculous speculation.
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Jon Awbrey
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:32pm
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QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 3:25am) *

QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 7:00am) *

Giano,

Yes, be careful about taking advice from people who are in meta*denial about the irredeemable character of Wikipedia.

Be at peace — it is already too late and there is nothing you could have done — by the time you become aware of being non-confluent with the Cabal you are already a 4gone goner whether you know it or not.

Like I said —

QUOTE

¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤
¤ Walk Toward The Light ¤
¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤



Jon, unlike you I don't believe that there are any organisations or people who are irredeemable. There is just cock-up and confusion, very rarely conspiracy.

On Giano being a goner I see that the Palace of Monaco

Talk:Prince's Palace of Monaco

will be a featured article on April 28. I wonder if that will be the date ArbCom has designated for his banning.


Peter,

I am a Designer And Theorist Of Systems (DATOS) — more armchair of late than formerly, but my critique of any given Social Technical Architecture (STA) is based on experience with the ways that systems work and the ways that systems crash.

Systems do crash. If you don't believe that some systems are irredeemable — speaking as I always do in pragmatic terms — then I have an old TI99/4A that I'd like to sell you, real cheap.

Systems headed for the cliff of irrecoverable failure almost always give us signs and exhibit the arch-typical symptoms that hell-bent systems almost always do.

We ignore the warning signs at our peril, though it may be the peril of nothing but time that were better spent elsewhere.

Nothing but time …

Ay, there's the rub —

Jon cool.gif

This post has been edited by Jon Awbrey: Wed 23rd April 2008, 4:44pm
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guy
post Wed 23rd April 2008, 8:25pm
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QUOTE
I suspect that the active, interacting core of established editors is smaller than people realise.

That's because at least 50% are socks.
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Giggy
post Thu 24th April 2008, 1:22am
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And 75% of the rest spend most of their time around ANI and ArbCom stuff. Hence there appear to be so few people actually doing useful things.
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Milton Roe
post Thu 24th April 2008, 5:29am
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QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 3:37pm) *

OK lesson 2. Let’s look on in wonder and learningment at FT2’s most recent post. So it’s easy to “speak FT2”. The only problem is that it makes any intelligent human being want to throw up in a bucket. The bit that begins “The moment he can say to someone ….” is actually so vomit-inducing I am going to head for the toilets.

It might be helpful to add a Pythonesque lisp. A sort of high-church Episcopalian self-help-book-ese, with a sleepy English essay assignment to compaaawe and contwaaast...
QUOTE

Sadwy thewe have been solid, consistent attempts to wespect this. To discuss as a human being, to make awowances, to pweeead and twy to help and to wecognize stwengths and weaknesses, constantwy. Many users, not least myself since December. Pwoblem's been they all got ignowwed. I stood back and did nothing, let others handle things this time. That got this and this. No wecognition of human beings being hurt, and pwoject members dwiiiven off. Compaaawe and contwaaast that when Bishonen posts what looks like weal evidence and says I'm wrong, I went immediately to check if she's wiiight, and was compwwweeetely prepaaawwwed to take that concern up on her behalf if she's wwwight and I'm mistaken.


QUOTE(Giano @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 9:31am) *

A lot of people have posted some very salient and perceptive facts on the subject. Some of whom I hardly know. others I know far better, so off the top of my head it would be unfair to single any two out, or even three. I think a lot of people would be very happy to see Geogre dispensing some of his down to earth wisdom from the Arbcom, anyway singling anyone could be handing them a poisoned chalice.

Aha! Is that the chalice with the palace? Or the flagon with the dragon? rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by Milton Roe: Thu 24th April 2008, 6:49am
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Peter Damian
post Thu 24th April 2008, 6:41am
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FT2's essay on his talk page has been blanked by him, at request. Giano (see his talk page) has been asked to apologise for the 'troll' edit summary. Giano has refused.

[edit] There is a caviarish reference to something 'full and frank' about FT2 he is going to say this morning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207661607

Someone else comments 'Oh man, don't do that - zero sum for you and especially FT2'. What does he mean?


Oh yes and I have opened a 'Peter Damian' account at WP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Peter_Damian

and left a message on Flo's page. Had another mail from Angela saying Wales was too busy and why not try the arbcom. So here goes.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Thu 24th April 2008, 6:48am
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The Joy
post Thu 24th April 2008, 7:27am
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QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Thu 24th April 2008, 2:41am) *

FT2's essay on his talk page has been blanked by him, at request. Giano (see his talk page) has been asked to apologise for the 'troll' edit summary. Giano has refused.

[edit] There is a caviarish reference to something 'full and frank' about FT2 he is going to say this morning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207661607

Someone else comments 'Oh man, don't do that - zero sum for you and especially FT2'. What does he mean?


Oh yes and I have opened a 'Peter Damian' account at WP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Peter_Damian

and left a message on Flo's page. Had another mail from Angela saying Wales was too busy and why not try the arbcom. So here goes.


Shouldn't your account read "blocked indefinitely in December 2007"?

Though if WScribe has his way, it won't be there long. sad.gif
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Moulton
post Thu 24th April 2008, 10:56am
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I didn't find the zero-sum remark, but it probably should be negative-sum anyway.

A zero-sum game is one where one player wins what the other one loses. (Win-Lose)

In these dramas, almost without exception, everyone loses.

It's uncommonly hard to craft a win-win game (a game of cooperation and creativity).
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Peter Damian
post Thu 24th April 2008, 11:26am
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Thu 24th April 2008, 11:56am) *

I didn't find the zero-sum remark, but it probably should be negative-sum anyway.

A zero-sum game is one where one player wins what the other one loses. (Win-Lose)

In these dramas, almost without exception, everyone loses.

It's uncommonly hard to craft a win-win game (a game of cooperation and creativity).


Agreed. I think he meant 'lose lose' situation
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wikiwhistle
post Thu 24th April 2008, 12:09pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 24th April 2008, 6:29am) *


It might be helpful to add a Pythonesque lisp. A sort of high-church Episcopalian self-help-book-ese, with a sleepy English essay assignment to compaaawe and contwaaast...


You could alternate that with a sort of Tony Blair with a fanatical glare, perhaps with hand gestures accordingly. smile.gif
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post Thu 24th April 2008, 1:20pm
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Wed 23rd April 2008, 12:32pm) *

... I have an old TI99/4A that I'd like to sell you, real cheap.

Jon -- funny you should mention this. My sister (co-developer of Wikipedia Review) and I both learned our first basic programming skills on TI99/4A's that we each bought, when I was (I guess) about 12 years old.

We still refer to Wikipedia Review as our "TI99/4A for the 21st century". That's more as a personal nudge to each other -- hopefully not as an admission that Wikipedia Review is a failed system.

unsure.gif

Greg
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