World War II, The anti-US version Options

[Emperor]

When will Oberiko and his group stop?

He's won just about every argument he's had, and still keeps going.

He's got the article under constant semi-protection.
He's deleted the American picture from the lead montage, and now there are 2 Soviet, 2 Commonwealth, and 2 Japanese.
The Intro and infobox refuse to say that the war started in 1939, and the 1937/39 debate continues.
The Intro and infobox don't list the major combatants
The major commanders aren't listed anywhere in the article. (For fun, try to find "Eisenhower" or "Zhukov" anywhere on the page using Edit --> Find on this Page.)

The entire article is written in Oberiko's weird wiki-summary style where the proper names of events are hidden within Wiki-links. See the Normandy Invasion coverage, in its entirety:

In June, 1944, the Western Allies invaded northern France

And check my favorite passage:

The Soviets decided to make their stand at Stalingrad which was in the path of the advancing German armies and by mid-November the Germans had nearly taken Stalingrad in bitter street fighting when the Soviets began their second winter counter-offensive, starting with an encirclement of German forces at Stalingrad[94] and an assault on the Rzhev salient near Moscow, though the latter failed disastrously.[95

I've been following the article for years now, and seen people come and go but basically anyone who doesn't agree with Oberiko gets frustrated and leaves. He's not afraid to swing his administrator status and have people blocked who edit war with him or Parsecboy.

I could go through line by line and point out not only anti-Western and anti-American bias, but also outright errors. Take the first line of the Background section:

In the aftermath of World War I, the defeated German Empire signed the Treaty of Versailles.[7]

How does anyone not notice this for months and months? I've been watching it as an experiment to see if Wikipedians will ever get a clue, but, well, you see. Later in the background you'll find out that Germany's goal with Austria was to make it a "satellite state". Both of these statements are referenced too?

Insult to injury: the Holocaust is described as "the systematic purging of Jews in Europe". Well I'm pretty sure English isn't Oberiko's first language, but then why doesn't anyone help him? Oh right, because it's so obvious that the article is Owned that you'd be an idiot to try to help.

I know this breaks my rule of thumb not to help Wikipedia myself, but it is the number one search result and I'm feeling a bit of remorse just letting it fester, with it being around D-Day this week and having just recently talked to guy who was a B-29 pilot based in Saipan. I can't believe a generation of kids might be seeing their first encyclopedia article about WWII on Wikipedia.

This post has been edited by Emperor: Tue 10th June 2008, 9:40pm

[Neil]

As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in return for Coventry, which was both revenge and as a moral boost for the British people, and b] as a demonstration of power?

This post has been edited by Neil: Wed 11th June 2008, 1:07pm

[thekohser]

As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in return for Coventry, which was both revenge and as a moral boost for the British people, and b] as a demonstration of power?

There was a lot of revenge and moral justification happening during WW2.

I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

All of it was sad and certainly needless, as over 60 years of peace and alliance between the US and Japan since have proven.

[Pumpkin Muffins]

As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in return for Coventry, which was both revenge and as a moral boost for the British people, and b] as a demonstration of power?

There was a lot of revenge and moral justification happening during WW2.

I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

All of it was sad and certainly needless, as over 60 years of peace and alliance between the US and Japan since have proven.

Greg, don't be an idiot. That's what humans do; they form groups and kill each other to take their stuff. It's the history of the human race. And if anyone thinks humans are different and past all that now, then they are double idiots.

[everyking]

As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in return for Coventry, which was both revenge and as a moral boost for the British people, and b] as a demonstration of power?

There was a lot of revenge and moral justification happening during WW2.

I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

All of it was sad and certainly needless, as over 60 years of peace and alliance between the US and Japan since have proven.

Greg, don't be an idiot. That's what humans do; they form groups and kill each other to take their stuff. It's the history of the human race. And if anyone thinks humans are different and past all that now, then they are double idiots.

That's what humans do under certain conditions. Changed conditions mean changed behavior. Despite being particularly vulnerable due to being a double idiot, I've never had anyone try to kill me to take my stuff. As a tendency, it appears to be diminishing.

[Pumpkin Muffins]

That's what humans do under certain conditions. Changed conditions mean changed behavior. Despite being particularly vulnerable due to being a double idiot, I've never had anyone try to kill me to take my stuff. As a tendency, it appears to be diminishing.

Maybe it's been the other way around for you; maybe your standard of living is based, in part, on cheap raw materials flowing our way that was secured through warfare, or the threat of force. The Pax Americana hasn't been without bloodshed, it's just a calm in the storm. A few generations of peace is all any large civilization seems to be able to handle.

[everyking]

That's what humans do under certain conditions. Changed conditions mean changed behavior. Despite being particularly vulnerable due to being a double idiot, I've never had anyone try to kill me to take my stuff. As a tendency, it appears to be diminishing.

Maybe it's been the other way around for you; maybe your standard of living is based, in part, on cheap raw materials flowing our way that was secured through warfare, or the threat of force. The Pax Americana hasn't been without bloodshed, it's just a calm in the storm. A few generations of peace is all any large civilization seems to be able to handle.

Actually, I think capitalism and imperialism are all that are keeping us from having world peace right now. Progress and cooperation are far more fundamental to the human condition than warfare. Every human being should be insulted at the notion that killing and pillage is just "what humans do".

[Proabivouac]

Actually, I think capitalism and imperialism are all that are keeping us from having world peace right now. Progress and cooperation are far more fundamental to the human condition than warfare. Every human being should be insulted at the notion that killing and pillage is just "what humans do".

A false dichotomy: cooperation with and generosity towards one's own kin - in primitivity this is equivalent to an ethnic group, plus whichever other groups, if any, with whom one trades wives - and hostility towards everyone else is the norm.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac: Fri 13th June 2008, 5:58am

[everyking]

Actually, I think capitalism and imperialism are all that are keeping us from having world peace right now. Progress and cooperation are far more fundamental to the human condition than warfare. Every human being should be insulted at the notion that killing and pillage is just "what humans do".

A false dichotomy: cooperation with and generosity towards one's own kin - in primitivity this is equivalent to an ethnic group, plus whichever other groups, if any, with whom one trades wives - and hostility towards everyone else is the norm.

I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that is the "natural" state of mankind? We used to rub sticks together to make fire, too, but as time passes we figure out better ways of doing things.