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> Slimvirgin/Felonious Monk/JzG case, ArbCom stalling, or just lazy?
No one of consequence
post Thu 10th July 2008, 8:24pm
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QUOTE(that one guy @ Wed 9th July 2008, 10:32pm) *

fucking outrageous. there is no reason to dismiss the case, other than the size perhaps. even then it can be solved by splitting the cases up.


You seem to assume that if the case was not dismissed, that there would be some sanctions and desysoppings. Suppose they voted on some real proposals and the result was Cla was sanctioned for harassing SV, and SV, JzG and FM got off scot-free--would you be happier? Dismissal is a more neutral result than people realize. "most of these complaints are old and things are better lately" is not the same as "parties X, Y and Z are not guilty."


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Saltimbanco
post Thu 10th July 2008, 8:49pm
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QUOTE(One @ Thu 10th July 2008, 8:28am) *

Sam speaks.

"Just as an administrator does not have to block an editor who has broken some of the rules if they think it would be harmful, so it is with arbitration"

Bottom line: some editors can break the rules because we agree with their contributions to the "encyclopedia." Shocking, I'm sure. News at eleven.


Come on, now! We all know, in our heart of hearts, that the rule of law is over-rated. Even if you can't see this now, rest assured that if you were an Arbitrator, you would have no doubt of its truth.
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gomi
post Thu 10th July 2008, 9:03pm
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In this thread, a number of us speculated on the outcome of this case. In my analysis, Jpgordon, Morven, and Charles Matthews were very unlikely to sanction FelonyMonk or SlimeVirgin. I was uncertain about the rest, but Blacketer seems to have declared his intentions -- that is 4 of the 8 arbs, so there is little hope of a meaningful verdict here. Also, as noted, Blnguyen almost always goes along with the majority. This leaves James Forrester, the only plausibly sane arb, swinging in the wind, with the rather dubious and somewhat psychotic companionship of FT2.

Given all of this I will repeat my prediction from then:
QUOTE(gomi @ Fri 13th June 2008, 1:39pm) *
I think that after another month or so, a bunch of non-action decisions will be made, nothing will be done, and there will be hugs all around. Cla68 will go back to editing, but will now be hectored at every turn by Slim's posse, until he leaves WP. Slim will re-surface from the self-imposed semi-exile and start manipulating the system with renewed vigor. The whole thing will take the rest of the year to play out.
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Moulton
post Thu 10th July 2008, 9:07pm
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QUOTE(Saltimbanco @ Thu 10th July 2008, 4:49pm) *
Come on, now! We all know, in our heart of hearts, that the rule of law is over-rated. Even if you can't see this now, rest assured that if you were an Arbitrator, you would have no doubt of its truth.

Yes, the Rule of Law is over-rated.

It's only at the half-way mark to the highest levels of ethical reasoning.

If I were on ArbCom, I would mandate that anyone seeking to exercise a position of authority or responsibility (including editing of mainspace articles) be required to obtain a passing grade in at least one of the higher rungs above the middle rung on the ladder of development of ethical reasoning.
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The Joy
post Fri 11th July 2008, 12:12am
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QUOTE(gomi @ Thu 10th July 2008, 5:03pm) *

In this thread, a number of us speculated on the outcome of this case. In my analysis, Jpgordon, Morven, and Charles Matthews were very unlikely to sanction FelonyMonk or SlimeVirgin. I was uncertain about the rest, but Blacketer seems to have declared his intentions -- that is 4 of the 8 arbs, so there is little hope of a meaningful verdict here. Also, as noted, Blnguyen almost always goes along with the majority. This leaves James Forrester, the only plausibly sane arb, swinging in the wind, with the rather dubious and somewhat psychotic companionship of FT2.

Given all of this I will repeat my prediction from then:
QUOTE(gomi @ Fri 13th June 2008, 1:39pm) *
I think that after another month or so, a bunch of non-action decisions will be made, nothing will be done, and there will be hugs all around. Cla68 will go back to editing, but will now be hectored at every turn by Slim's posse, until he leaves WP. Slim will re-surface from the self-imposed semi-exile and start manipulating the system with renewed vigor. The whole thing will take the rest of the year to play out.



And you predicted that on Friday the 13th, no less!
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LaraLove
post Fri 11th July 2008, 4:53am
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QUOTE(No one of consequence @ Thu 10th July 2008, 4:24pm) *

QUOTE(that one guy @ Wed 9th July 2008, 10:32pm) *

fucking outrageous. there is no reason to dismiss the case, other than the size perhaps. even then it can be solved by splitting the cases up.


You seem to assume that if the case was not dismissed, that there would be some sanctions and desysoppings. Suppose they voted on some real proposals and the result was Cla was sanctioned for harassing SV, and SV, JzG and FM got off scot-free--would you be happier? Dismissal is a more neutral result than people realize. "most of these complaints are old and things are better lately" is not the same as "parties X, Y and Z are not guilty."

I really think that it's a bad idea to dismiss. Another example of epic fail. This case has been dragging on for weeks. It sat idle for how long? Like two months. Yes, a lot of the evidence is old, but it's to give context and show the long-term pattern of abuse that is an on-going problem. I can't imagine the community accepting a dismissal. Of course, what would happen, really? I think if the ArbCom weren't already lacking faith from the community, there'd probably be a lot of huffing and some proposals for the first few days following the dismissal, then everyone would get bored or distracted and wonder off and nothing would happen. But this would be the cherry on top, srsly. This would complete the 2008 series of ArbCom failures that I think would really just send the community over the edge.

Banned editors aren't the only ones that are fed up to their eyeballs with admins getting away with this sort of stuff. Other admins are sick of it, too. These veteran admins that feel immune to process need to be handled. And if this case is dismissed, it just reaffirms their belief that they can get away with anything... because they really can.
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Giggy
post Fri 11th July 2008, 5:53am
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QUOTE(gomi @ Fri 11th July 2008, 7:03am) *

In this thread, a number of us speculated on the outcome of this case. In my analysis, Jpgordon, Morven, and Charles Matthews were very unlikely to sanction FelonyMonk or SlimeVirgin. I was uncertain about the rest, but Blacketer seems to have declared his intentions -- that is 4 of the 8 arbs, so there is little hope of a meaningful verdict here. Also, as noted, Blnguyen almost always goes along with the majority. This leaves James Forrester, the only plausibly sane arb, swinging in the wind, with the rather dubious and somewhat psychotic companionship of FT2.

Given all of this I will repeat my prediction from then:
QUOTE(gomi @ Fri 13th June 2008, 1:39pm) *
I think that after another month or so, a bunch of non-action decisions will be made, nothing will be done, and there will be hugs all around. Cla68 will go back to editing, but will now be hectored at every turn by Slim's posse, until he leaves WP. Slim will re-surface from the self-imposed semi-exile and start manipulating the system with renewed vigor. The whole thing will take the rest of the year to play out.


And Tony, don't forget Tony!
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Mr. Mystery
post Fri 11th July 2008, 9:48am
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QUOTE(gomi @ Thu 10th July 2008, 9:03pm) *

In this thread, a number of us speculated on the outcome of this case. In my analysis, Jpgordon, Morven, and Charles Matthews were very unlikely to sanction FelonyMonk or SlimeVirgin. I was uncertain about the rest, but Blacketer seems to have declared his intentions -- that is 4 of the 8 arbs, so there is little hope of a meaningful verdict here. Also, as noted, Blnguyen almost always goes along with the majority. This leaves James Forrester, the only plausibly sane arb, swinging in the wind, with the rather dubious and somewhat psychotic companionship of FT2.

Given all of this I will repeat my prediction from then:
QUOTE(gomi @ Fri 13th June 2008, 1:39pm) *
I think that after another month or so, a bunch of non-action decisions will be made, nothing will be done, and there will be hugs all around. Cla68 will go back to editing, but will now be hectored at every turn by Slim's posse, until he leaves WP. Slim will re-surface from the self-imposed semi-exile and start manipulating the system with renewed vigor. The whole thing will take the rest of the year to play out.



I do agree that it will take the rest of the year to play out, but I don't think Cla eventually leaving because of Slim resurfacing will be an outcome. Slim seems incapable of manipulating the system for the same reasons the arbcom is incapable of hearing the case... The community has simply gotten too large and unmanageable and the outside world's awareness of their follies has become too acute for them to be able to act effectively.

I for one am not concerned with the committee not hearing the case. When they voted to accept so quickly, I thought that the arbs just intended for a fast and dirty railroading of Cla. But the community was on them, used the opportunity to present incontrovertible evidence against SV and FM, which made it impossible for the arbs to act, as those two, you all know, were part of the tight network that always worked in collusion with the arbs, citing them in policy and such, enforcing arbitration decisions as if they were law, and culling adminship nominations in favor of sycophants dedicated to perpetuating their collective regime. The arbs could never realistically act against SV or JzG; they were all central parts of a corrupt system that essentially worked to enforce ArbCom and Jimbo's grip on authority, but which could only operate effectively while ordinary editors believed that their actions were "for the benefit of the encyclopedia."

Now that its obvious, due to the many public scandals brought upon by their own unchecked hubris, to be otherwise, their formerly loyal support system of thousands is now collectively exasperated. For the ArbCom to redeem themselves would be like cutting off an arm. An arm that was once strong and powerful, but which has developed a severe case of gangrene. To save their body, the Arbs have to issue sanctions to, and thereby sever their relationship with, SV and co., but individually and collectively they are not up to the task, and so with their silence their credibility further drains away, and the lumbering RFC gathers more comments like a rolling stone.
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Herschelkrustofsky
post Fri 11th July 2008, 2:42pm
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QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 10th July 2008, 9:53pm) *

I can't imagine the community accepting a dismissal. Of course, what would happen, really? I think if the ArbCom weren't already lacking faith from the community, there'd probably be a lot of huffing and some proposals for the first few days following the dismissal, then everyone would get bored or distracted and wonder off and nothing would happen. But this would be the cherry on top, srsly. This would complete the 2008 series of ArbCom failures that I think would really just send the community over the edge.

Banned editors aren't the only ones that are fed up to their eyeballs with admins getting away with this sort of stuff. Other admins are sick of it, too. These veteran admins that feel immune to process need to be handled. And if this case is dismissed, it just reaffirms their belief that they can get away with anything... because they really can.
A year ago, I don't think this case would have been accepted. I think that rage against the Cabal among rank-and-file Wikipedians is slowly, slowly approaching the boiling point.
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Rootology
post Fri 11th July 2008, 4:49pm
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QUOTE(Mr. Mystery @ Fri 11th July 2008, 2:48am) *

Now that its obvious, due to the many public scandals brought upon by their own unchecked hubris, to be otherwise, their formerly loyal support system of thousands is now collectively exasperated. For the ArbCom to redeem themselves would be like cutting off an arm. An arm that was once strong and powerful, but which has developed a severe case of gangrene. To save their body, the Arbs have to issue sanctions to, and thereby sever their relationship with, SV and co., but individually and collectively they are not up to the task, and so with their silence their credibility further drains away, and the lumbering RFC gathers more comments like a rolling stone.


Since there has been no (correct me if I'm wrong) legitimate successful re-election ever of an Arbitrator besides Fred Bauder, and the following terms expire December 2008:

1. James F
2. Blnguyen
3. Thebainer
4. Charles Matthews
5. Morven (already said he's not running again)

And the following expire in December 2009:

1. FloNight
2. Kirill
3. Paul August
4. UninvitedCompany
5. Jpgordon

The Arbcom shortly is going to look drastically different. I'd bet that anyone who runs and legitimately pushes through as a "Change" candidate is going to do fantatically well. Any candidate that pushes a platform to give control back away from the old Jimbo model to something more overseen and mandated by the community is going to be a lock. The only way to stop this building avalanche would be if Jimbo personally stepped in to do something to keep it the Old Way, and people would collectively crap their pants and fire him if he did that to short circuit the election. The WMF won't be able to do anything either, to support Jimbo or the AC on that, either, since the WMF can't interfere locally with such things. The Section 230 chain stops them.

The handling of cases like this, IRC, and probably others that I missed are going to wreak havoc long term with the power status quo on Wikipedia, and the old guard are going to be helpless to stop it, since they're always in the end as bound by that little birdy called consensus as everyone else is, no matter how much some protest it (Tony). December 2008/December 2009 are going to be very interesting.

I'm honestly shocked that things are turning out the way that they are, here. It's not exactly rocket science to manipulate crowds and opinions. Politicians have been doing it for thousands of years. But the so called Old Guard isn't even trying anymore this year, like they're resigned to the way this is all turning out, or simply don't care anymore. I wonder if people are getting over the idea of power on the site, since it can't realistically be held without fighting 24x7x365 to hold it?
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Mr. Mystery
post Fri 11th July 2008, 6:25pm
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Fri 11th July 2008, 2:42pm) *

QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 10th July 2008, 9:53pm) *

I can't imagine the community accepting a dismissal. Of course, what would happen, really? I think if the ArbCom weren't already lacking faith from the community, there'd probably be a lot of huffing and some proposals for the first few days following the dismissal, then everyone would get bored or distracted and wonder off and nothing would happen. But this would be the cherry on top, srsly. This would complete the 2008 series of ArbCom failures that I think would really just send the community over the edge.

Banned editors aren't the only ones that are fed up to their eyeballs with admins getting away with this sort of stuff. Other admins are sick of it, too. These veteran admins that feel immune to process need to be handled. And if this case is dismissed, it just reaffirms their belief that they can get away with anything... because they really can.
A year ago, I don't think this case would have been accepted. I think that rage against the Cabal among rank-and-file Wikipedians is slowly, slowly approaching the boiling point.


A year ago, they might still have been able to do what they wanted to, which was essentially what they tried to do with Orangemarlin, but which today they felt they couldn't do in front of the community, probably because expectations of a "fair trial" would get in the way.
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Viridae
post Fri 11th July 2008, 10:09pm
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It occurs to me that if arbcom does turn out to be a picture of impotence and pass that dismissal, it will end up in fron the the community. Community based sanctions have progressed a long way.
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that one guy
post Fri 11th July 2008, 11:21pm
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Yes, but slim and friends are going to argue they're not open to recall all the way to the bank.
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LaraLove
post Fri 11th July 2008, 11:29pm
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QUOTE(that one guy @ Fri 11th July 2008, 7:21pm) *

Yes, but slim and friends are going to argue they're not open to recall all the way to the bank.

What are the chances of getting a steward to act on community consensus, to set a precedent for desysop outside of ArbCom or AOR? Lar?
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Aloft
post Sat 12th July 2008, 12:17am
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http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&action=history

More recent tag-team edit warring by Slim and Crum. They like to use the "per talk" edit summaries, even though the the discussion on the talk page clearly doesn't support their position.

How can Arbcom justify not applying some kind of edit warring restriction on Slim? She's sitting there doing it while her case is in progress. How much more blatant can she be?
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Viridae
post Sat 12th July 2008, 1:16am
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QUOTE(Aloft @ Sat 12th July 2008, 10:17am) *

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&action=history

More recent tag-team edit warring by Slim and Crum. They like to use the "per talk" edit summaries, even though the the discussion on the talk page clearly doesn't support their position.

How can Arbcom justify not applying some kind of edit warring restriction on Slim? She's sitting there doing it while her case is in progress. How much more blatant can she be?

Prepare for fireworks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Adm...rown_Dog_affair

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post Sat 12th July 2008, 1:17am
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Yeah, desysopping is hard, but how about this:

FM is pretty damn weak here, has stacks of evidence against him, and has been socking (even though people are too discrete to point it out). I think he could get community banned with or without the bit. I doubt FM or JzG could, but I think it's not impossible for FM to be.

If he blocked for a decent length of time desysopping would seem pretty uncontroversial.

Maybe we're not there yet though.


Edit:

QUOTE(Viridae @ Sat 12th July 2008, 1:16am) *

Viridae, I think MONGO's comment will get a lot of support. Good luck. ArbCom might find a use for the case yet.

This post has been edited by One: Sat 12th July 2008, 1:19am
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Viridae
post Sat 12th July 2008, 1:21am
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QUOTE(One @ Sat 12th July 2008, 11:17am) *

Yeah, desysopping is hard, but how about this:

FM is pretty damn weak here, has stacks of evidence against him, and has been socking (even though people are too discrete to point it out). I think he could get community banned with or without the bit. I doubt FM or JzG could, but I think it's not impossible for FM to be.

If he blocked for a decent length of time desysopping would seem pretty uncontroversial.

Maybe we're not there yet though.


Edit:

QUOTE(Viridae @ Sat 12th July 2008, 1:16am) *

Viridae, I think MONGO's comment will get a lot of support. Good luck. ArbCom might find a use for the case yet.


Socking?
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Aloft
post Sat 12th July 2008, 1:29am
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QUOTE(One @ Fri 11th July 2008, 8:17pm) *
Viridae, I think MONGO's comment will get a lot of support. Good luck. ArbCom might find a use for the case yet.
Mongo's statement was useless. 3RR and a longstanding dispute? Did he even read why they were blocked?

I suppose some people will say that he should have warned first, but should it be necessary to warn an administrator not to participate in a month-long tag-team edit war? Shouldn't they know better already?

Crum hadn't edited that page for a bit, but since he's been warring on it for a month there's no doubt he would go right back to reverting. It's not like he would have suddenly decided to stop on his own.

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Proabivouac
post Sat 12th July 2008, 1:36am
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QUOTE(Viridae @ Sat 12th July 2008, 1:21am) *

Socking?

B identified Odd nature as a sockpuppet of Felonious Monk on the basis of contribs alone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req....B7_contribs.29

The Arbitration Committee completely ignored it:
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showt...9&hl=Odd+nature

We've since discovered that Odd nature edits from FM's employer, even moving with him when he changes jobs:
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=111714

The only evidence to the contrary was…well, he told people it wasn't true.

Assume good faith!

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