Gerard blocks Giano for sockpuppetry, invokes good/bad hand accounts policy - wrongly Options

[wikiwhistle]

Like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Palace

which he has been working on throughout the last three months.

Precisely, he's only worked on a few articles over the last many months.

[Obesity]

That remark makes me think seriously of leaving WR. Perhaps I wouldn't be missed. Giano may not lack drama but he stands for all the maligned and abused and despised content contributors that are still there. And he sticks up for them too.

That was an appalling remark Kato. I had a very high opinion of you until I saw this.

Please, Peter. This is vintage Kato. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to old-school-WR's well-worn hard line approach--namely, that WP is a complete failure that needs to be wholly demolished--is part of the problem, or, at best, a distraction from those "real issues". You're either with WR, or you're with the terrorists. Choose a side.

Wikipediots like myself celebrate Giano's talent for casting sharply worded tomatoes on the faces of the feeble, misguided, self-important, scheming schoolmarms who currently run the assylum.

Giano can be smug, shrill and, at his worst, an attention glutton and bully (which is especially ironic, given his underdog pretensions), but we forgive--and perhaps even encourage--these foibles because his efforts to expose the incompetence/impotence of the Arbitration Committee and other key figures are so often right on the money.

Not all of his antics are effective or well reasoned, but he remains a worthy martyr for highly skilled content editors who been made to feel unwelcome by WP's absurd police system.

We also enjoy his writing style; his best articles are a joy to read, and his essays are hilarious.

[Peter Damian]

That remark makes me think seriously of leaving WR. Perhaps I wouldn't be missed. Giano may not lack drama but he stands for all the maligned and abused and despised content contributors that are still there. And he sticks up for them too.

That was an appalling remark Kato. I had a very high opinion of you until I saw this.

Please, Peter. This is vintage Kato. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to old-school-WR's well-worn hard line approach--namely, that WP is a complete failure that needs to be wholly demolished--is part of the problem, or, at best, a distraction from those "real issues". You're either with WR, or you're with the terrorists. Choose a side.

Wikipediots like myself celebrate Giano's talent for casting sharply worded tomatoes on the faces of the feeble, misguided, self-important, scheming schoolmarms who currently run the assylum.

Giano can be smug, shrill and, at his worst, an attention glutton and bully (which is especially ironic, given his underdog pretensions), but we forgive--and perhaps even encourage--these foibles because his efforts to expose the incompetence/impotence of the Arbitration Committee and other key figures are so often right on the money.

Not all of his antics are effective or well reasoned, but he remains a worthy martyr for highly skilled content editors who been made to feel unwelcome by WP's absurd police system.

We also enjoy his writing style; his best articles are a joy to read, and his essays are hilarious.

Precisely - his Wodehousian sense of humour is very funny to Brits like myself.

Wikiwhistle I can't believe you are saying such things. The Winter Palace is a massive piece and required much research, some of it outside G's area of expertise. I am not sure I can forgive you for any of those remarks above, and I considered you a sort of friend here [storms out of the room in a huff].

[Mike H]

I am not sure I can forgive you for any of those remarks above, and I considered you a sort of friend here [storms out of the room in a huff].

We went from Peter Damian to Michael Damian. Love it. Where's Cricket to despair when we need her?

[groody]

Please, Peter. This is vintage Kato. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to old-school-WR's well-worn hard line approach--namely, that WP is a complete failure that needs to be wholly demolished--is part of the problem, or, at best, a distraction from those "real issues". You're either with WR, or you're with the terrorists. Choose a side.

Can't speak for Kato, but I can speak for myself. As far as I'm concerned, Wikipedia *is* a complete failure, it just hasn't realised it yet. Despite some shining lights who do appear to be trying to actually make an encyclopaedia, of whom Giano is one, it simply cannot succeed in being anything more than a drama generator, an MMORPG, a playground for school bullies of the worst kind. It has much good content, but, unless there is a very major change in governance, that will inevitably be watered down, sanitised and vandalised out of existence as time goes on. It is futile to edit wikipedia when a ten-year-old admin can, and will, decide that it's in violation of either WP:NOR or WP:NPOV or - well - you get the WP:POINT.

Until something radical happens, Wikipedia can WP:FUCKOFFYOUCUNT as far as I'm concerned, and so can anyone still trying to edit there in any sort of non-subversive manner. The time for Giano-esque wordplay has been and gone. It's time for pitchforks and torches.

f.

This post has been edited by groody: Sun 23rd November 2008, 5:26pm

[Kato]

Please, Peter. This is vintage Kato. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to old-school-WR's well-worn hard line approach--namely, that WP is a complete failure that needs to be wholly demolished--is part of the problem, or, at best, a distraction from those "real issues". You're either with WR, or you're with the terrorists. Choose a side.

Yes, I've noticed that kind of rational, real world perspective thing I do has just become so old round these parts, thanks to folks like yourself.

I don't recall writing anything of the sort you describe, and I find it interesting that you've taken to lobbing pot shots at myself lately on various threads - having seen off threats like Kohs Awbrey and Brandt.

I've seen this kind of thing before in cults - the attempts to discredit and wantonly mischaracterize any criticism, even if it is as reasonable and rational as mine, all to protect the hive by any means necessary.

Go Giano!!!!!!!!!!!! WOooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!

[Pumpkin Muffins]

I may be missing something, but can anyone explain to me what Giano actually does to deserve this Cult Status?

Sure, he writes a few nice articles, but so did fellow sock-puppeteers Poetguy and SlimVirgin. And writing a decent article for WP isn't particularly taxing.

I just take a look at Giano's endless drama-fueled stunts and wonder why he hasn't been given the boot long ago? His relentless, hyperactive, jack-in-the-box rabble-rousing lacks any credibility to me.

This kind of thing is clearly bad for Wikipedia -- which is good for everyone else, of course. If Giano was doing this stuff as some kind of anti-Wikipedia activist, I'd be applauding him at every turn, but he and a whole load of followers seem to think these antics represent some kind of credible anti-corruption drive to improve the place.

When the red mist clears, Team Giano are generally found to be as indoctrinated, and as blind to the genuine problems of WP as the most hardline Wikipedo. Meaning that these interpersonal dramas actually obstruct reform by sapping time and energy.

Long ago, Giano came under Kelly Martin's thumb, back when she was one of the project's jack-booted thugs. What happened instead was that Giano, Geogre and Bishonen took Kelly down, giving hope to the idealistic masses that perhaps there was a glimmer of hope for the project; that people of encyclopedic merit could triumph over social climbing IRC whores and bullies, and that the English Wikipedia might start to actually value quality editing and editors.

There's been a chain of similar events ever since.

And then there's Giano's unbelievable spirit and sense of humor. (Hey Cedric, you could learn a thing or two from Giano).

This post has been edited by Pumpkin Muffins: Sun 23rd November 2008, 5:45pm

[Herschelkrustofsky]

The only remotely uncivil remark he made was this:

You are nothing but a troll. I know this and so does everyone reading the tripe you are trolling here. Go away, and I will say no more about you. Shoo..... [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II#top|talk]]) 00:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

but that was two days ago.

Bear in mind that he was addressing Will Beback. Here's the context. Under the circumstances, I regard it as a simple statement of fact.

[Kato]

That remark makes me think seriously of leaving WR. Perhaps I wouldn't be missed. Giano may not lack drama but he stands for all the maligned and abused and despised content contributors that are still there. And he sticks up for them too.

That was an appalling remark Kato. I had a very high opinion of you until I saw this.

I read and absorb a lot of things you write PD, and have respect for that stuff. I also respect the insights of people like NYBrad, and Cla68 when they write things.

I just don't think Giano has anything very interesting to say about Wikipedia's governance, and find his antics to be a distracting circus. Unlike the contributions of the above.

For instance, in the questions to the candidates, there was some interesting stuff about WP's future. But this is utterly lost in the midst of this typically-tedious-lunatic non-drama about a guy faking another account, prancing around as Lady Whatever, and then performing some kind of foppish Performance Art piece surrounding his block. You might see that as dissent, where all I heard was "look at me, me, me".

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Giano is seen as, and to a large extent is, the leading defender of content-contributors against the parasitical mandarin class and their leadership.

Well said.

[Peter Damian]

Giano is seen as, and to a large extent is, the leading defender of content-contributors against the parasitical mandarin class and their leadership.

Well said.

Yes. And as I said above, he also defends and shows great kindness to those content contributors who do not have his high profile.

I just don't think Giano has anything very interesting to say about Wikipedia's governance, and find his antics to be a distracting circus. Unlike the contributions of the above.

I don't know what planet you are living on. But then you hold Awbrey in high regard.

[Peter Damian]

Even our own Wikiwhistle joins the anti-Giano horde on-wiki.

If the short blocks don't work, then what is to be done? This arbcom ruling isn't being enforced- quite the opposite. Individual admins just keep being banned from blocking Giano. How many will be stopped from blocking him, so effectively no-one can, and when will it be admitted that numerous people think he's acting wrong, that's why he keeps being blocked, not through individual prejudice? This is why FT2 blocked this time- but even he is now being accused of persecution. Even members of arbcom now can't enforce the rulings. I can only think it would need Jimbo to act, not that he would as it would make him unpopular with some people- we need to wait until consensus comes, but perhaps gradually each person will see the line and think Giano has overstepped it far enough. Sticky Parkin 16:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

But why did FT2 block? As I suggested above, he seems to have entirely misunderstood the point and the content of Giano's remarks. He saw the word 'stupid' (in fact Giano was referring to no one in particular) and thought 'incivility'.

[maggot3]

Precisely, he's only worked on a few articles over the last many months.

Have you even looked at how long that article is? In addition to all the articles about specific rooms he made.

[Obesity]

I don't recall writing anything of the sort you describe, and I find it interesting that you've taken to lobbing pot shots at myself lately on various threads - having seen off threats like Kohs Awbrey and Brandt.

The suggestion that an obscure poster like myself has the influence to "see off threats like Kohs, Awbrey and Brandt" is flattering, but I'm not sure "threats" is the best choice of words here, since the only thing Awbrey threatened was the reasonable forum-reader's patience and did so with distressing regularity. I actually had very little interaction with any of them (though I may have teased Awbrey a few times for his unreadable threads).

By contrast, I always enjoyed reading what Kohs and Brandt had to say and found them to be engaging and intelligent, though Brandt's accusations can be outlandish at times.

Perhaps what you're saying is that my very insufferable presence (coupled with the swelling influx of my "romper room" colleagues) drove them off, but I very much doubt that's what made Kohs and Brandt leave.

Also, I should probably apologize for not clearly delineating your views from the shrinking down-with-WP mob that at one time seemed fashionable around here. Sometimes you all start to sound the same.

Many of us wikipediots agree with your positions on the "big" issues (BLP problems/flagged revisions/clueless, unqualified leadership) you regularly complain about, and agree that WP would be a better place were those concerns addressed. I certainly spend a lot more time thinking about them after discovering this forum and am more careful in my editing as a result.

I do, however, think you would win more converts with slightly more engaging, less contemptuous approach than that which you and Jon Awbrey seem to favor. Your distaste for the "personality" aspect of WP is noted (and noted and noted and noted and noted and noted), but a healthy(?) interest in wiki-personalities/drama (which drew most of us here in the first place) does not preclude a desire to improve the aspects of the encyclopedia we both wish to improve. So perhaps you should stop abusing your guests for expressing such an interest. Or don't. I think your repetition is kind of entertaining.

If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry, but your preaching continually to a very tiny choir becomes tiresome. That's not how you win hearts and minds, and that should really be your goal.

This post has been edited by Obesity: Sun 23rd November 2008, 6:15pm

[JoseClutch]

True or not, Giano is also widely seen as the victim of persecution by the iron-fisted oligarchy. Giano is actually a very nice guy if you do not open with being a dick to him. Nobody believes he started his long-running conflict with the IRC backslappers, and every time they come after him it looks like opportunistic dickery.

If Giano is somehow a problem, it is lost in the sea of the problem that is those who hold a grudge against him. If they behaved, and Giano misbehaved - he would get in trouble. Until then - people love the underdog, and since those after him are being asses about it, he gets a pass when he returns the level of civility he gets.

[Kelly Martin]

he gets a pass when he returns the level of civility he gets.

As well he should. Arbitrary enforcement of vague and irrational policies is unfair and destructive.

Giano gets different consideration because of his contributions, but really it's more a case of Giano getting slightly less unfair treatment than others, who have simply been summarily banned without any hope of reprieve.

[Kato]

If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry, but your preaching continually to a very tiny choir becomes tiresome.

Not at all. I just recognized your drip-drip-drip efforts to further marginalize criticism of the actual model at this site, and downgrade independent voices in favor of what Giano himself calls:

"little more these days than a slightly risque, but far more interesting, version of ANI."

Here's some news. The Real World is tiresome. Far more tiresome than the WP:FANTASYFOOTBALLLEAGUE of a slightly risque WP:ANI. But that's the real world we live in, and no matter how deeply entrenched in this Second-Life garbage you are, it is the real world that matters in the end.

he gets a pass when he returns the level of civility he gets.

As well he should. Arbitrary enforcement of vague and irrational policies is unfair and destructive.

The thing is that this Arbitrary enforcement exists throughout the site and stems from ideas at the heart of WPs philosophy, so it makes no difference whether you, NewYorkBrad, King Solomon, Huey, Louis or Dewey are on the Arbitration committee.

Which is why targeting individuals on Arbcom in 2006, and different bunch in 2007, and then a different bunch again in 2008, etc etc, is so pointless and wasteful. This is merely a result of drama ascending to The Top as it does in all these things. Individual Arbitrators become scapegoats for a far deeper malaise.

[Milton Roe]

Probably Giano should have said that all the goth male foul-mouthed short-tempered English en-checkusers who are NOT stewards, are a disgrace. Then, he'd have been okay.

DG is Australian.

It's not where you were born that counts, it's where you live, work, and have an influence. I suppose that view is the American in me.

[Milton Roe]

Can't speak for Kato, but I can speak for myself. As far as I'm concerned, Wikipedia *is* a complete failure, it just hasn't realised it yet. Despite some shining lights who do appear to be trying to actually make an encyclopaedia, of whom Giano is one, it simply cannot succeed in being anything more than a drama generator, an MMORPG, a playground for school bullies of the worst kind. It has much good content, but, unless there is a very major change in governance, that will inevitably be watered down, sanitised and vandalised out of existence as time goes on. It is futile to edit wikipedia when a ten-year-old admin can, and will, decide that it's in violation of either WP:NOR or WP:NPOV or - well - you get the WP:POINT.

Until something radical happens, Wikipedia can WP:FUCKOFFYOUCUNT as far as I'm concerned, and so can anyone still trying to edit there in any sort of non-subversive manner. The time for Giano-esque wordplay has been and gone. It's time for pitchforks and torches.

f.

If you'll allow me a side riff on this, I once thought the same, but have changed my mind. You see, it's not true that

It has much good content, but, unless there is a very major change in governance, that will inevitably be watered down, sanitised and vandalised out of existence as time goes on.

For the simple reason that vandalized stuff does NOT go "out of existence." It merely retires to the museum basement, until it can be used for restoration (or if you prefer, it never left the museum basement-- the vandalized Mona Lisa up there on the wall, is a copy). WP doesn't oversight those old best "stable" versions (whether they've been marked "stable" or not), and in any case, even if WP tried to kill them, most have been scraped by mirror sites that do NOT allow "anybody to edit" and thus vandalize. So WP, despite all the 3-steps-forward-2-back nonsense, is a rachett which creeps slowly forward. Most of us are pissed off at the slow RATE it improves, and the damage it does to BLP on the side, but we don't disagree that the content gets getting and more inclusive. A few people, like Kato of the "WP-delenda-est" repetitions. But the rest of us here on WR I think disagree.

Meanwhile, it's frustrating. WP with its present (non)governance is a Michelangelo Pietà with the head knocked off (thanks, Lazlo Toth-- you're no Don Novello). It's a gold inlaid Kuwaiti palace with Iraqi shit on the floor. As Mr. Spock once said about logic, it's a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad.

So what to do? I've already taken an oath not to help WP with any of its fundamental problems until it does something about its "culture" of Goths. And I mean that in all senses of the word. And though I also work on individual science and history articles I'm interested in (I contribute more lasting content than just about anybody dramatizing on Jimbo's TALK page), I only revert vandalism on articles where it is interfering with my personal work. The rest of it I leave alone to the Huggle users who only have work because Jimbo and the community cannot allow Huggies for the un-potty-trained. The non-housetrained.

And I'm going to suggest something else, which I heard the other day and am happy to spread as a meme. I suggest that editors of content on WP, as a protest until sprotection (or its equivalent) arrives, refrain from reverting ANY IP-vandalism on their favorite weekend day. Simply pick your religious day of rest, and do no IP-vandal reversion on that day, letting it pile up like the garbage in a city sanitation engineer's strike. But not all the time. Just one day a weekend. I do not urge anybody to vandalize wikipedia; I suggest you merely refrain from cleaning up gratuitous IP-vandalism on the weekly day of IP-vandal-protest, and thus send a message to the others of the "community" at WP, that if they insist on letting "anybody" edit, then for this day, THEY get to clean up the shit from it.

Enjoy, you lackies!

(I think I'm going to re-post some of the above in its own thread)

Milton

[wikiwhistle]

Here is the content contribution in giano's last 300 edits-

he wrote a paragraph
he piped a link
he removed a date.