FT2 vs. SlimVirgin, The end is near! Options

[Moulton]

Urim and Thummim? Fuhgiddaboudit!

NewYorkBrad, being a 21st Century New York lawyer, is in an impossible position.

The status quo at Wikipedia, since its inception, has been to operate the site with a pre-Hammurabic tribal governance model in which power flows arbitrarily, capriciously, and unquestionably from the tribal chieftan. That Jimbonic governance model does not recognize or incorporate such niceties as equal protection, due process, civil rights, evidence-based reasoning, or judicious and enlightened principles of modern management.

For NYBrad to apply modern legal concepts to any case coming before ArbCom, he has the impossible job of fast-forwarding WikiCulture through 3768 years of bloody political history.

There is simply no way that a community accustomed to pre-neolithic tribalism is going to assimilate, accept, and adapt to such a jarring update in governance process.

[Piperdown]

They have said that SlimVirgin must be very careful with her use of administrator tools -- in effect, a warning that the next incident of wheel warring or other abuse would result in removal of her access.

they got capone on tax evasion.

[Cla68]

The answer has to be "none of the above". If the system is so messed up that those at its pinnacle cannot interpret and apply rules in a rational and transparent way then that tells us that it might just be a problem with the rules.

There are no rules. The best we can hope for is to deduce first-approximation predictions as to how the system will behave when it is excited in various ways. Do not mistake these empirical observations for rules; there is nothing whatsoever about these hypotheses that binds anyone in Wikipedia to act consistent with them.

It has long been touted as a strength of the Wikipedia system that it has no fixed, formal rules (including by myself, back in the dark days when I was an admin). And certainly this is true, if you happen to be one of the powerful elites within its system; not having rules to follow is a major bonus, especially for those with power. However, it makes life rather difficult for anyone who is trying to actually get something real done within that environment; the lack of any real predictability means that so much of one's time is spent dealing with the environment, and that means so much less time spent on getting productive work done.

This is the core of the problem with Wikipedia and what has led to this ridiculous situation. FT2 is obviously flailing away at trying to establish ArbCom as a legitimate, effective governance body in Wikipedia. Unfortunately, he's making mistakes in doing so. He stuck his head out a little too far in the OrangeMarlin case and was called on it. He did the same again with Giano's 55-hour block. Giano's block wasn't given by the ArbCom committee, it was given by FT2 trying to act on behalf of the committee before obtaining formal support from the rest of the comittee members. SV may have recognized this and acted on it.

If Wikipedia had a few more rules, and a governance body with a clear charter and formal power to enforce them, then perhaps there wouldn't be as much of this political, dramatic nonsense. The "lack of predictibility" includes the unfair and uneven way in which the current "rules" are applied to different volunteers (i.e. editors) and is incredibly distracting, time-consuming, and frustrating to deal with, and may be the biggest obstacle to keeping Wikipedia from becoming something truly credible.

[Moulton]

If Wikipedia had a few more rules, and a governance body with a clear charter and formal power to enforce them, then perhaps there wouldn't be as much of this political, dramatic nonsense. The "lack of predictability" includes the unfair and uneven way in which the current "rules" are applied to different volunteers (i.e. editors) and is incredibly distracting, time-consuming, and frustrating to deal with, and may be the biggest obstacle to keeping Wikipedia from becoming something truly credible.

While having clearly defined rules which apply equally to all players is better than having a pre-Hammurabic tribal ochlocracy, that only changes the flavor of the resulting drama. Instead of having liminal social drama in response to a breach of (unwritten) expectations, one has courtroom-style drama instead.

To evolve all the way from anachronistic mob rule to a modern well-regulated governance model, Wikipedia would have to advance through the Rule of Law stage to the next higher echelon in the Kohlberg-Gilligan Model to the level of a Social Contract.

Frankly, the odds of that happening in my lifetime are nil to nonexistent. To arrive at an ethical governance model, the participants have to be schooled in ethical reasoning. Notwithstanding the irony that Wikipedia advertises itself as the sum of all human knowledge, the vast majority of the admins don't even grok the fundamental concepts of the Rule of Law, let alone the more advanced concepts of the Foundations of Ethics. To advance to ethics, the participants would have to master functional reasoning. That's not gonna happen with the current population of Homo Schleppians, as most people simply don't have that much mathematics or philosophy under their headbands.

[Cla68]

It looks like the Committee is going to take FT2's side on this, in spite of the recent revelations. And Fred's "creative new sanctions" don't appear to be appreciated.

This post has been edited by Cla68: Tue 25th November 2008, 2:28am

[gomi]

OK, how's this for a whacky theory:

1) SlimVirgin has been and continues under so much scrutiny that her legitimate use of admin tools has dwindled to almost nothing -- she has indef-blocked almost nobody in the last 10 months or so;

2) Slim has Jayjg and other dedicated meatpuppets still willing to block anyone who crosses her, so her admin tools are of little use anymore;

3) Slimmy wants to go out in a blaze of glory (or at least drama), and damage a few of her enemies while at it, so she is deliberately courting controversy in this case with the aim of maximal damage.

In other words, she expects to be desysoped, and then be able to make a big stink about it, and Giano gave her the excuse.

It sounds nutty, I know, but in the world of Wikipedia, anything goes!

[Heat]

My view for some time is that SV wants to leave wikipedia but can't because she has a dependency on it. Therefore, like the gambler who tries to get banned from a casino she is trying to get desysopped from wikipedia but do it in such a way as to restore at least some of her reputation and self-esteem ie disciplined "unjustly" over a grand principle. in fact, however, she is simply causing as much drama as possible just like any garden variety troll.

[Shalom]

I soundly disagree with the last two suggestions at SlimVirgin's intent. It's more than evident from reading what she wrote on the RFAR page that she really believes she acted correctly. Although a majority of commenters disagree, it's not unanimous, and her position is defensible. It's not the first time an admin has taken a bold action, knowing that many would oppose it, because that admin really believed it was the right thing to do.

It may nonetheless be correct for ArbCom to desysop her, but I am far from certain. I am certain that SlimVirgin is not trying to get desysopped in a blaze of drama. It's more akin to saying "I'll do what I think is right, and if you want to desysop me for it, it's not as if I can stop you from doing that, so I'm not going to worry about that." [Added: Or maybe she didn't even think that far ahead.]

This post has been edited by Shalom: Wed 26th November 2008, 1:18am

[Heat]

Whether it's a matter of wanting to be desyssoped or no longer caring it amounts to pretty much the same thing - it's only a matter of time before she's turfed.

[Proabivouac]

I am certain that SlimVirgin is not trying to get desysopped in a blaze of drama. It's more akin to saying "I'll do what I think is right, and if you want to desysop me for it, it's not as if I can stop you from doing that, so I'm not going to worry about that."

In a wikiworld where purportedly respected contributors scatter like roaches at the first sign of day, SlimVirgin is standing up to be counted - something the Arbitrators themselves don't even do as they trip over one another to hide behind one anothers' sigs.

To fight those stronger than you instead of the weak is the very definition of chivalry. It is the Arbitrators' eternal shame that they enthusiastically persecute those weaker than them, while pathetically genuflecting to the strong: this is the mark of cowards.

My hat is off to SlimVirgin and to anyone else who stands up to Wikipedia's despotic and cowardly Arbitration Committee. Worry not about your bits and bytes; glory belongs to those who fight the strong.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac: Wed 26th November 2008, 12:27pm

[Kato]

I am certain that SlimVirgin is not trying to get desysopped in a blaze of drama. It's more akin to saying "I'll do what I think is right, and if you want to desysop me for it, it's not as if I can stop you from doing that, so I'm not going to worry about that."

In a wikiworld where purportedly respected contributors scatter like roaches at the first sign of day, SlimVirgin is standing up to be counted - something the Arbitrators themselves don't even do as they trip over one another to hide behind one anothers' sigs.

To fight those stronger than you instead of the weak is the very definition of chivalry. It is the Arbitrators' eternal shame that they enthusiastically persecute those weaker than them, while pathetically genuflecting to the strong: this is the mark of cowards.

My hat is off to SlimVirgin and to anyone else who stands up to Wikipedia's despotic and cowardly Arbitration Committee. Worry not about your bits and bytes; glory belongs to those who fight the strong.

Oh good grief.

This is just the same old Wikipedia Revenge Crap as it ever was.

Boo-hoo - Charles Matthews and FT2 didn't support me in all my other arbitration battles this year, so I'm going to make them pay by having me and my friends undermine them as publicly as possible. Blah blah, blah.

The best thing possible for Wikipedia would be if people like Giano and SlimVirgin suddenly found themselves new jobs or new environs, which meant that they couldn't edit Wikipedia anymore.

Wikipedia has never resolved the problem of how to extract clearly problematic vested contributors like Giano and SlimVirgin. And Wikipedia's dispute processes are woefully designed to deal with these Warlords, who seem to view an encyclopedia as a competetive game, and who travel around with armies of followers poised to attack anyone who criticizes them.

Admittedly, Giano is a far more charming and engaging Warlord than SlimV, but he wouldn't get far in the real world if he went about like that, and would still be shown the door.

[Kelly Martin]

Admittedly, Giano is a far more charming and engaging Warlord than SlimV, but he wouldn't get far in the real world if he went about like that, and would still be shown the door.

The difference, I think is that Giano chooses to behave the way he does because he's realized that his approach is actually an effective strategy within Wikipedia, while Slimmy is simply not capable of acting differently.

[Heat]

I am certain that SlimVirgin is not trying to get desysopped in a blaze of drama. It's more akin to saying "I'll do what I think is right, and if you want to desysop me for it, it's not as if I can stop you from doing that, so I'm not going to worry about that."

In a wikiworld where purportedly respected contributors scatter like roaches at the first sign of day, SlimVirgin is standing up to be counted - something the Arbitrators themselves don't even do as they trip over one another to hide behind one anothers' sigs.

To fight those stronger than you instead of the weak is the very definition of chivalry. It is the Arbitrators' eternal shame that they enthusiastically persecute those weaker than them, while pathetically genuflecting to the strong: this is the mark of cowards.

My hat is off to SlimVirgin and to anyone else who stands up to Wikipedia's despotic and cowardly Arbitration Committee. Worry not about your bits and bytes; glory belongs to those who fight the strong.

Might be chivalrous if not for the fact that for years SlimVirgin used her schmoozing with Jimbo, ArbComm members and various admins to attack those in a weaker position than her directly or by proxy and exploited the trust various people had misplaced in her since in a number of situations where any objective person would have concluded she was in the wrong (such as in the Mantanmoreland case) her view prevailed because she was in the inner circle as a "trusted" and "respected" users and people she disagreed with were not.

The Arbcomm is no more despotic or cowardly than it's ever been (and far less despotic, cowardly or capricious than SV was in her heyday). The only difference is that previously their actions often coincided with SlimVirgin's wishes whereas now they do not and moreover, because Jimbo either has tired of SV or lacks the influence he once had she is no longer able to get her way through personal (and private) appeals to authority.

[Proabivouac]

Wikipedia has never resolved the problem of how to extract clearly problematic vested contributors like Giano and SlimVirgin.

As opposed to Wikipedia's Arbitrators,"vested contributors" who are obviously doing a terrific job. (that's whose side you're taking, after all.)

This is just the same old Wikipedia Revenge Crap as it ever was.

Righteooh! The Arbs are taking revenge on SlimVirgin for her reversing FT2's block of Giano.

[Kato]

As opposed to Wikipedia's Arbitrators,"vested contributors" who are obviously doing a terrific job. (that's whose side you're taking, after all.)

"Taking sides" on this kind of thing is like rooting for The Crips over The Bloods in a feud over who gets to control the crack-market in some godforsaken neighborhood.

You're all victims of a cruel and unusual system.

Meanwhile, Jimbo Wales dines with Oil Sheiks in Dubai, in the full knowledge that his biography has more protection than Fort Knox, laughing himself to sleep.

[Mr. Mystery]

I am certain that SlimVirgin is not trying to get desysopped in a blaze of drama. It's more akin to saying "I'll do what I think is right, and if you want to desysop me for it, it's not as if I can stop you from doing that, so I'm not going to worry about that."

In a wikiworld where purportedly respected contributors scatter like roaches at the first sign of day, SlimVirgin is standing up to be counted - something the Arbitrators themselves don't even do as they trip over one another to hide behind one anothers' sigs.

To fight those stronger than you instead of the weak is the very definition of chivalry. It is the Arbitrators' eternal shame that they enthusiastically persecute those weaker than them, while pathetically genuflecting to the strong: this is the mark of cowards.

My hat is off to SlimVirgin and to anyone else who stands up to Wikipedia's despotic and cowardly Arbitration Committee. Worry not about your bits and bytes; glory belongs to those who fight the strong.

Might be chivalrous if not for the fact that for years SlimVirgin used her schmoozing with Jimbo, ArbComm members and various admins to attack those in a weaker position than her directly or by proxy and exploited the trust various people had misplaced in her since in a number of situations where any objective person would have concluded she was in the wrong (such as in the Mantanmoreland case) her view prevailed because she was in the inner circle as a "trusted" and "respected" users and people she disagreed with were not.

The Arbcomm is no more despotic or cowardly than it's ever been (and far less despotic, cowardly or capricious than SV was in her heyday). The only difference is that previously their actions often coincided with SlimVirgin's wishes whereas now they do not and moreover, because Jimbo either has tired of SV or lacks the influence he once had she is no longer able to get her way through personal (and private) appeals to authority.

the above being the case, incl. Kato's comments, i have to agree with Proabivouac and hope Slim prevails on this one. as bad as she was, the arbcom is the greater public threat at this point. Undermining it would seem the surer way to eventually depose Jimbo. Slim (or her friend Jayg) may be the wikipedian with the most"illicit knowledge" of prior dealings of individual arbcom members that she can threaten to make public. she is in a position where she has to do the equivalent of turning state's evidence, to the community, in order to survive.

[Moulton]

It's hard to tease apart the desire for revenge from the desire for justice. In western culture, most people envision justice as Retributive Justice. There is an alternative notion of Restorative Justice which is more about healing (repairing the damaing and making whole) than getting even by harming the miscreant. Retributive Justice (revenge) gives rise to the dysfunctional Dostoevskian Crime and Punishment Culture, full of intrigue and drama, and largely devoid of empathy or therapy until everyone is suffering in roughly equal misery.

Inequities invariably give rise to a restoring force. In the pathological case, balance is achieved by driving all parties to the bottom (that's colloquially known as "the pit of hell"). In the enlightened case, exact balance is not achieved; instead the parties leap-frog each other whilst alternately ascending to ever higher levels of personal satisfaction. The main feature of the enlightened model is the prominence of creativity, innovation, and discovery learning.

[Cedric]

Color me unimpressed. Our Deva of Stroynayaness gives every indication of being a lover of intrigue, and those that fall in love with intrigue very rarely, if ever, fall out of love with it. This is true whether you are a charming and witty social butterfly like Sir Walter Raleigh; or a dark, mercurial and resentful character like Richard Nixon. So she took a seemingly principled stand for once. Big deal. That doesn't mean she did it for a principled reason. Besides which, no one can be wrong 100% of the time, anyway. I vote "meh".

[Milton Roe]

Color me unimpressed. Our Deva of Stroynayaness gives every indication of being a lover of intrigue, and those that fall in love with intrigue very rarely, if ever, fall out of love with it. This is true whether you are a charming and witty social butterfly like Sir Walter Raleigh; or a dark, mercurial and resentful character like Richard Nixon. So she took a seemingly principled stand for once. Big deal. That doesn't mean she did it for a principled reason. Besides which, no one can be wrong 100% of the time, anyway. I vote "meh".

I know the feeling. Nixon liked Richard Rodgers' Guadalcanal March from Victory at Sea, and so do I.

I'd rather think of Nixon the coldly calculating poker-playing sailor, soaking up shipboard money to save for future political campaigns, from drunken sailors who were thinking of their girlfriends or their mortality, and weren't paying attention to the cards. That's the guy I love to hate. But not the Nixon who liked Richard Rodgers. Damn.

[Mr. Mystery]

you know what? i actually think Slim could do a better job of running the community than Jimbo or Arbcom. she may be paranoid, but she seems a lot smarter than all of them. (which is not saying a lot, but still... Slim snow crashing the Arbcom would seriously undermine Jimbo's god-kingdom, creating a power void that would allow other change to happen. the outcome may be an ultra-draconian police state, but it would at least be functional, and would certainly seem the right remedy for what ills the community.)

call me a traitor, but ultimately, given the option i'd rather work for Slim's Wikipedia than Jimbo's.