Giano Wars: Revenge of the ArbCom, More Soap Opera than Space Opera, though Options

[Hipocrite]

I think you'll find it is the Jimbo model that caused today's proceedings, Doc. Brad and co are just hapless trapped victims of an obsession they can't break. So are you.

Kato, it seems to me that you spend a lot of time watching the ArbCom pages yourself, for someone who pronounces them completely irrelevant to anything.

Seriously, if you have a moment, I'd appreciate if you'd head over to the Articles/BLP thread where I've posted something that might actually be more meaningful to both of us (and Doc as well) and could use a little help.

What would be more meaningful is if the ArbCom wasn't baning nearly everyone who stops ethnic/science/whatever POV pushing by people who are paid to shill. Fuck people's tender sensibilities about having an encyclopedia page about them, wikipedia is misinforming impressionable readers about various acts of genocide and pretty much all of modern cosmology, biology and economics, and banning everyone who tries to fix it. Now Moreschi? You should all resign.

[Kato]

I think you'll find it is the Jimbo model that caused today's proceedings, Doc. Brad and co are just hapless trapped victims of an obsession they can't break. So are you.

Kato, it seems to me that you spend a lot of time watching the ArbCom pages yourself, for someone who pronounces them completely irrelevant to anything.

Because they're funny - irrelevant - but funny. They also provide great examples of the dysfunctional community in close-up.

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Ha, well yes. Although Tony's really pretty gone these days.

Indeed, I haven't seen him in Brad's tea shop for a while.

He's a hardcore addict, lord knows what account he edits under now - isn't that how it goes, Doc?

welcome to the hotel wikipedia,
you can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.

[Doc glasgow]

Ha, well yes. Although Tony's really pretty gone these days.

Indeed, I haven't seen him in Brad's tea shop for a while.

He's a hardcore addict, lord knows what account he edits under now - isn't that how it goes, Doc?

welcome to the hotel wikipedia,
you can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.

No.

Tony's incapable of editing without being spotted. He's gone (for now anyway).

[SirFozzie]

Ha, well yes. Although Tony's really pretty gone these days.

Indeed, I haven't seen him in Brad's tea shop for a while.

He's a hardcore addict, lord knows what account he edits under now - isn't that how it goes, Doc?

welcome to the hotel wikipedia,
you can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.

No.

Tony's incapable of editing without being spotted. He's gone (for now anyway).

He actually popped back in as Tony on the SV arbcom, but that's the only place I saw him.

and I stand behind my statement on RfArb 9,000,000 percent. (yes, I know. It's a theoretical # )

[The Joy]

Ha, well yes. Although Tony's really pretty gone these days.

Indeed, I haven't seen him in Brad's tea shop for a while.

He's a hardcore addict, lord knows what account he edits under now - isn't that how it goes, Doc?

welcome to the hotel wikipedia,
you can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.

No.

Tony's incapable of editing without being spotted. He's gone (for now anyway).

He's not Apoc2400 (T-C-L-K-R-D) , is he? Apoc is definitely a returning user trying to stir up trouble. GoodDay (T-C-L-K-R-D) is certainly suspicious as well with his naive trolling.

[Alex]

Ha, well yes. Although Tony's really pretty gone these days.

Indeed, I haven't seen him in Brad's tea shop for a while.

He's a hardcore addict, lord knows what account he edits under now - isn't that how it goes, Doc?

welcome to the hotel wikipedia,
you can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.

No.

Tony's incapable of editing without being spotted. He's gone (for now anyway).

He's not Apoc2400 (T-C-L-K-R-D) , is he? Apoc is definitely a returning user trying to stir up trouble. GoodDay (T-C-L-K-R-D) is certainly suspicious as well with his naive trolling.

No neither are him. I think I have a fairly good idea.

[InkBlot]

I think it is make your mind up time for arbcom, they can ditch the brad model as failed and get some backbone from somewhere, or they can prove Kelly Martin right and carry causing drama by being ineffectual.

This is not the place for me to discuss a pending arbitration request at any length, but "the Brad model" would have avoided every aspect of today's proceedings.

Nope, the brad model /caused/ today's proceedings. It is the continual failure to nip things in the bud that has led us here. it is the continued failure only to look at the immediate problem and ask "how do I make this horrible thing go away without annoying too many people?" that perpetuates it. You made the monsters you now run from.

In fairness, the "brad model" predates brad.

By avoiding drama, you simply stoke it.

I think you'll find it is the Jimbo model that caused today's proceedings, Doc. Brad and co are just hapless trapped victims of an obsession they can't break. So are you.

Meanwhile, Jimbo makes money hand over fist. Dining out on your woes - laughing with Bono and spending his Spring in Davos.

This whole mess today has been giving me flash backs to the very first Giano arbitration case...the one I asked for, after watching a firestorm roll over just about every noticeboard there is and seeing just about every kind of accusation fly just shy of invoking Godwin's Law. Being a newbie back then, I'd only seen one or two arbitration cases and they did actually seem to accomplish something...so I thought it could work then, too. I thought it was put up or shut up time for a lot of people.

So what did we get? A case full of findings that sounded more like the color commentary on a high school football game. And stakes in the hearts of a couple of admins (and I'm still sorry for that, Kelly). It was a failure then, and it's been getting worse as time goes on. I really think ArbCom would be best off vacating any standing decisions on Giano, and enacting a self-prohibition on admin actions by the committee.

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Ha, well yes. Although Tony's really pretty gone these days.

Indeed, I haven't seen him in Brad's tea shop for a while.

He's a hardcore addict, lord knows what account he edits under now - isn't that how it goes, Doc?

welcome to the hotel wikipedia,
you can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.

No.

Tony's incapable of editing without being spotted. He's gone (for now anyway).

Doc, I see you're in denial. Don't confuse drying out with being cured. He'll fall off the wagon eventually, just like you. Actually, holy fuck, I see he's had a full blown relapse.

[everyking]

Doc, I see you're in denial. Don't confuse drying out with being cured. He'll fall off the wagon eventually, just like you. Actually, holy fuck, I see he's had a full blown relapse.

Maybe he'll come around to commenting on current ArbCom matters, then; Doc's "ArbCom is always right" stance is looking more lonely than ever, and I'm sure he'd appreciate some backup.

(Good God--is he writing articles? Tony Sidaway? Are we sure his account hasn't been hacked?)

This post has been edited by everyking: Wed 17th December 2008, 5:39am

[Sarcasticidealist]

Maybe he'll come around to commenting on current ArbCom matters, then; Doc's "ArbCom is always right" stance is looking more lonely than ever, and I'm sure he'd appreciate some backup.

I can't speak for Doc, but wasn't he just today being quite emphatic about Arb Comm having spent a lot of time recently being wrong?

[Newyorkbrad]

Maybe he'll come around to commenting on current ArbCom matters, then; Doc's "ArbCom is always right" stance is looking more lonely than ever, and I'm sure he'd appreciate some backup.

I can't speak for Doc, but wasn't he just today being quite emphatic about Arb Comm having spent a lot of time recently being wrong?

Actually, Doc (as WP user Scott MacDonald) wrote a very detailed essay recently denouncing the Arbitration Committee's recent performance. (The essay contained some comments about me, which I responded to at the time in prose, and tonight in verse.)

[everyking]

Maybe he'll come around to commenting on current ArbCom matters, then; Doc's "ArbCom is always right" stance is looking more lonely than ever, and I'm sure he'd appreciate some backup.

I can't speak for Doc, but wasn't he just today being quite emphatic about Arb Comm having spent a lot of time recently being wrong?

I don't claim to fully understand his position. Perhaps it's that the ArbCom is always right, except when it shows any kind of leniency, but even then it must be obeyed without question? If my representation of his position is wrong, he should feel free to correct me.

[Kato]

I don't claim to fully understand his position. Perhaps it's that the ArbCom is always right, except when it shows any kind of leniency, but even then it must be obeyed without question? If my representation of his position is wrong, he should feel free to correct me.

I think one of the things DocG got right was how the Arbcom represents a cross between a lightening rod and a whipping boy for drama swarms. Much like a referee at a football game. If the game starts to go the wrong way for the home team, fans go straight to attacking the referee - because he is there.

The drama model of WP, and much of the internet it seems, means that antagonism eventually finds its way to the top of the structure. And it is simply inevitable that the swarm comes banging at the Arbcom's door trying to tear the committee down. The biggest moment at WP will be when Jimbo is ousted. Also an inevitability given the model. There just isn't the infrastructure or controls to stop this.

What is interesting is how apparently intelligent players don't realize they are merely giving in to these almost primal instincts, and are totally swept up in this. Giano is a classic case, but there are many others.

I maintain that an Arbcom drawn from the wisest people in history would still get torn down in the end on Wikipedia.

[EricBarbour]

"I'm sick to death of Giano threads, I'm sick to death of the focus on this one user. Ban him, canonise him, write up WP:GIANO with whatever special rules you want, but leave the rest of us alone please.--Scott Mac (Doc) 16:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)"

Doc postures as if he's above-it-all, but it's clear that he loves this shit more than anyone

Tony's incapable of editing without being spotted. He's gone (for now anyway).

PWNED

Admit it. You're ALL pwned. This is why Giano keeps trying to get back in--
partly because you're sitting around waiting for him.

Soon there will need to be a Wikiholics Anonymous.
And I predict the first chapter will be in Britain.

I maintain that an Arbcom drawn from the wisest people in history would still get torn down in the end on Wikipedia.

And I keep saying: shit flows downhill.

Get Jimbo out, purge his butt-nozzles, and things
will change for the better--Arbcom or no Arbcom.


This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Wed 17th December 2008, 8:00am

[Somey]

What would be more meaningful is if the ArbCom wasn't baning nearly everyone who stops ethnic/science/whatever POV pushing by people who are paid to shill. Fuck people's tender sensibilities about having an encyclopedia page about them, wikipedia is misinforming impressionable readers about various acts of genocide and pretty much all of modern cosmology, biology and economics, and banning everyone who tries to fix it. Now Moreschi? You should all resign.

I'd almost overlooked this particular comment of Mr. Hipocrite's - I assume he's primarily referring to ScienceApologist (T-C-L-K-R-D) , and maybe Peter Damian?

As much as I agree ideologically with the so-called "ID cabal" about Intelligent Design, their tactics have almost certainly been banworthy by Wikipedia standards. Though I don't think any of them have been banned, really... have they? Did I miss one?

Overall I'd say this is mostly hyperbole... after all, what evidence is there that the POV-pushers in question are being paid specifically to do things like edit WP? I'm sure a lot of them are, of course - I just don't see how it can be proven in the majority of cases, if the people are being reasonably careful.

I do agree that to put a block on Moreschi and leave the aforementioned shills alone is ridiculous, but just add it to the list, I guess.

[Viridae]

Tony Troll has commented on the arb request btw.

[JoseClutch]

He withdrew before I got to his candidacy, but there's some chance that I would have voted for WilyD this year solely for his pledge to ban damned near everybody who was brought before Arb Comm.

Judging by the state of his candidacy, the community's feelings on whether they want a harsh ArbCom are pretty clear. Or maybe he is just wildly unpopular, but I have not seen any evidence of that.

[Kelly Martin]

I really think ArbCom would be best off vacating any standing decisions on Giano, and enacting a self-prohibition on admin actions by the committee.

When I was an arbitrator, there was a general understanding that we should refrain from using admin tools in cases that were not absolutely obvious, because it could create problems if the incident in question ended up at the ArbCom. That's part of why there's the whole "arbcom requested enforcement" thingy.

[Sarcasticidealist]

Judging by the state of his candidacy, the community's feelings on whether they want a harsh ArbCom are pretty clear. Or maybe he is just wildly unpopular, but I have not seen any evidence of that.

You're probably right. On governance issues, I think my views are out of step with the majority community view. Generally, I wear this as a badge of honour.