Hell Freezes Over, SlimVirgin joins the Wikipedia Review Options

[Proabivouac]

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=9433

[Somey]

Imagine that!

We'll probably never get Awbrey to come back now, though...

[Hell Freezes Over]

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=9433

Jon was secretly quite fond of me, I think.

[Kato]

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=9433

Jon was secretly quite fond of me, I think.

Welcome to the Review "Hell freezes over".

[Sarcasticidealist]

This is a dumb question, and possibly somewhat insulting towards the staff, but we have confirmed that this is actually Slim, right? Assuming it is, welcome.

[Hell Freezes Over]

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=9433

Jon was secretly quite fond of me, I think.

Welcome to the Review "Hell freezes over".

Thank you, Kato.

[everyking]

A very warm welcome to SV. There's a lot she can contribute to the discussion here and I'm interested to see what she has to say.

[Proabivouac]

This is a dumb question, and possibly somewhat insulting towards the staff, but we have confirmed that this is actually Slim, right?

√confirmed

[Hell Freezes Over]

A very warm welcome to SV. There's a lot she can contribute to the discussion here and I'm interested to see what she has to say.

Thank you, Everyking and Sarcasticideal, for the warm welcome, which is much appreciated.

I still have to gather my thoughts about what I hope to help achieve here. Basically, I'm shocked about the events of yesterday -- Giano blocked for calling someone stupid, as though we're in kindergarten (and he was, indeed, blocked by a kindergarten teacher), the block extended by FT2, unblocked by Moreschi, who was then blocked by FT2 -- who continues to pretend that his edits got oversighted during an election by a friend without it ever being mentioned to him, until WR helpfully pointed it out.

All I know is that this isn't the Wikipedia I joined. Whether it has changed, or I have, I honestly don't know.

[Kato]

Question for Slim, FT2, Giano, Peter Damian and whoever else was mentioned in that other thread recently...

Don't you think you've all gone a bit too far?

If you'd all reined yourself in years ago, limited your participation on WP to healthy levels, or just left with dignity, everyone would be happier. Yourselves most of all?

Admittedly, all of you have done some fair things - Slim with some BLP campaigning, FT2 was quite progressive on the Mantanmoreland case, Giano writes nice articles for readers, and Peter seems to be quite a genuine figure, but really... come on people... snap out of it!

[Viridae]

Hello SV. Nice to see you here.

This post has been edited by Viridae:

[Proabivouac]

Question for Slim, FT2, Giano, Peter Damian and whoever else was mentioned in that other thread recently...

Don't you think you've all gone a bit too far?

If you'd all reined yourself in years ago, limited your participation on WP to healthy levels, or just left with dignity, everyone would be happier. Yourselves most of all?

Admittedly, all of you have done some fair things - Slim with some BLP campaigning, FT2 was quite progressive on the Mantanmoreland case, Giano writes nice articles for readers, and Peter seems to be quite a genuine figure, but really... come on people... snap out of it!

Slim and Peter have also written good articles. Moreschi is more respected by miles. And what of ScienceApologist, whom FT2 helped troll off?

FT2 has contributed nothing of value, either to Wikipedia or to the Review. Where most drama-seeking Wikipedia administrators exaggerate their mainspace contributions, FT2 runs away from his.

He is a parasite, pure and simple. Again and again he says, "either he/she goes, or I go," and each time the ArbCom is obliged to back him up. Any one of these contributors - much less all of them - is more valuable than him.

Who else will join this list of quality volunteer contributors disrespected, demoralized and driven off at the behest of FT2?

Wouldn't it be easier just to can FT2?

[Doc glasgow]

Sarah's arrival here is sadly predictable.

It is the same path Kelly Martin trod.

1) Powerful user on wikipedia is criticised here as part of the evil cabal and power structure.
2) Powerful user come unstuck on wikipedia. Her stock falls and she loses influence.
3) Powerful user rails at the personal injustice, blames the system and becomes determined to bring it down.

What happens next it that

a) The user forgets all their problems with the disaffected users here. She see the light and understand that they are fellow-sufferers from the abuse and corruption on wikipedia.
b) The people here forget their problems with the user, who becomes an ally in the Great Fight against the system.

My enemy's enemy is my new best friend?

Slim, whatever happened to Badsites?

[Proabivouac]

Sarah's arrival here is sadly predictable.

It is the same path Kelly Martin trod.
…

Next thing you know, Scott MacDonald will start posting here!

This post has been edited by Proabivouac:

[Viridae]

Sarah's arrival here is sadly predictable.

It is the same path Kelly Martin trod.

1) Powerful user on wikipedia is criticised here as part of the evil cabal and power structure.
2) Powerful user come unstuck on wikipedia. Her stock falls and she loses influence.
3) Powerful user rails at the personal injustice, blames the system and becomes determined to bring it down.

What happens next it that

a) The user forgets all their problems with the disaffected users here. She see the light and understand that they are fellow-sufferers from the abuse and corruption on wikipedia.
b) The people here forget their problems with the user, who becomes an ally in the Great Fight against the system.

My enemy's enemy is my new best friend?

Slim, whatever happened to Badsites?

Meh who the hell cares how she got here - if she is as entertaining as Kelly then I will be damn pleased. You yourself are a disaffected user unhappy with the way the system plays out.

[Kato]

Kelly Martin provides a top notch external and internal critique of WP that is compelling. Regardless of what went on in the past - most of which was at the hands of people no longer posting here.

Virtually nobody else here does this. Internal WP game players here rarely rise above the level of using this site to reek revenge, restore status, perpetuate drama, or advance their positions on Wiki.

Kelly has done none of this - it's to her credit.

[dtobias]

Did I call it right or what? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

----------------
Now playing: Suzi Quatro - Rock And Roll Hoochie Coo
via FoxyTunes

[JoseClutch]

All I know is that this isn't the Wikipedia I joined. Whether it has changed, or I have, I honestly don't know.

The truth is, it is probably both. You're getting exposed to the short end of the stick in a way you probably haven't ever, or at least since your signature was a redlink. ArbCom seems to be making a very naked grab for power; so whether this is a bad direction or a blip, who knows? The kind of upheaval you would associate with a changing of the guards? Certainly a question that many of us are here to figure out.

Anyways, welcome to the Wikipedia Review. Most of the residents will not bite, but I would not trust them with your fingers.

[Kelly Martin]

Kelly Martin provides a top notch external and internal critique of WP that is compelling. Regardless of what went on in the past - most of which was at the hands of people no longer posting here.

Virtually nobody else here does this. Internal WP game players here rarely rise above the level of using this site to reek revenge, restore status, perpetuate drama, or advance their positions on Wiki.

Kelly has done none of this - it's to her credit.

I held off joining WR in large part because WR needed to change—and change it did. The WR that existed when I fell out of favor at WP was not a WR I wanted to be a part of. I think we all know what the problems were back then.

Please note that nearly two years passed from when I "huffed" off Wikipedia to when I joined WR. Slim waited what, a month?

[tarantino]

Welcome, Slim.

[Kato]

I'd be interested to hear from some of the current anti-Arbcom crowd why this arbcom - and FT2 - is so much worse than the Arbcoms of old featuring the likes of Fred Bauder, Jayjg and David Gerard?

Why should we not assume that this current animosity is simply typical of the frustrations people get when they've stuck around too long and have become over-obsessed with paranoia fueled Wikipolitics? Completely warping their judgment?

[Son of a Yeti]

All I know is that this isn't the Wikipedia I joined. Whether it has changed, or I have, I honestly don't know.

Has it occurred to you that you may have been a vector of this change?

That is, we actually never met on Wikipedia (and I will not spill my WP username) but your fame preceded you.

I was thinking about a good literary analogy and the first thing I though about was the tempting of Galadriel in The Lord of the Ring. I could imagine you replacing Jimbo as the Wikipedia overlord. I'll quote Galadriel herself saying what she could become:

In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!

So maybe it's good for you that you are now here rather than in the cabal.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Review!


This post has been edited by Son of a Yeti:

[Hipocrite]

I'd be interested to hear from some of the current anti-Arbcom crowd why this arbcom - and FT2 - is so much worse than the Arbcoms of old featuring the likes of Fred Bauder, Jayjg and David Gerard?

Fred Bauder and David Gerrard might have been stupid, misguided or wrong, but their goal was to Enycyclopedia, and that excused a lot.

[wikiwhistle]

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=9433

Jon was secretly quite fond of me, I think.

Of course he was, he just fancied you, that was his problem (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) Welcome to the board Hell (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[GlassBeadGame]

This is a dumb question, and possibly somewhat insulting towards the staff, but we have confirmed that this is actually Slim, right?

√confirmed

Well a post with a link directed to user profile followed by "check confirmed" from Proab is generally regarded as incontrovertible. Take your time to gather your thoughts HFO. You might want to even take a little break. Get away from the computer. Take a walk.

[Lar]

Well a post with a link directed to user profile followed by "check confirmed" from Proab is generally regarded as incontrovertible.

It is? Not by me... SlimVirgin knows my email address and I know hers so an email would convince me. So would an edit on Wikipedia crosslinking.

I'm not sure Proab's sayso would count for anything with me, though... I don't rely on him for much of anything good. (that's just my view, others may differ)

Take your time to gather your thoughts HFO. You might want to even take a little break. Get away from the computer. Take a walk.

Always good advice.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Well a post with a link directed to user profile followed by "check confirmed" from Proab is generally regarded as incontrovertible.

It is? Not by me... SlimVirgin knows my email address and I know hers so an email would convince me. So would an edit on Wikipedia crosslinking.

The account was manually added by Somey. It's the real McCoy.

[GlassBeadGame]

Well a post with a link directed to user profile followed by "check confirmed" from Proab is generally regarded as incontrovertible.

It is? Not by me... SlimVirgin knows my email address and I know hers so an email would convince me. So would an edit on Wikipedia crosslinking.

I'm not sure Proab's sayso would count for anything with me, though... I don't rely on him for much of anything good. (that's just my view, others may differ)

Sometimes I think I might have to re-think emoticons, at least in the company of those who have become dependent on their presence to denote irony.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

I'd be interested to hear from some of the current anti-Arbcom crowd why this arbcom - and FT2 - is so much worse than the Arbcoms of old featuring the likes of Fred Bauder, Jayjg and David Gerard?

Fred Bauder and David Gerrard might have been stupid, misguided or wrong, but their goal was to Enycyclopedia, and that excused a lot.

I'd need to see some evidence for that claim. Also, you forgot to explain Jayjg.

I still have to gather my thoughts about what I hope to help achieve here. Basically, I'm shocked about the events of yesterday -- Giano blocked for calling someone stupid, as though we're in kindergarten (and he was, indeed, blocked by a kindergarten teacher), the block extended by FT2, unblocked by Moreschi, who was then blocked by FT2 -- who continues to pretend that his edits got oversighted during an election by a friend without it ever being mentioned to him, until WR helpfully pointed it out.

All I know is that this isn't the Wikipedia I joined. Whether it has changed, or I have, I honestly don't know.

In the Wikipedia of two years ago, editors were blocked by their ideological opponents, by means of elaborate subterfuge. Now they get blocked in fits of pique. Perhaps this is progress.

[Kato]

In the Wikipedia of two years ago, editors were blocked by their ideological opponents, by means of elaborate subterfuge. Now they get blocked in fits of pique. Perhaps this is progress.

2005-2007 was the time of The Great Expansion at Wikipedia. When the world and his wife arrived to take control of topics. It was an era akin to an online World War Two. With accompanying Wiki-atrocities committed by many parties.

Now, with all those old warriors exhausted, dispersed, and in some cases exiled, Wikipedia has stagnated, but matured somewhat. Things that went on in 2005 would be unthinkable now. But what it needs now is a Wiki-Marshall Plan to shift the place towards a responsible, productive environment. And to set an example to the rest of the internet that the kind of haphazard, free-for-all, defamation and drama machine is no longer acceptable.

[dtobias]

the world and his wife

The world is male, and married?

[Kato]

the world and his wife

The world is male, and married?

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/world+and+his+wife

Cretins. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sleep.gif)

[Moulton]

WP needs a Marshall Plan / Peace Treaty / Social Contract.

But I don't think the community is mature enough yet for that step.

When I think of such milestones as the Magna Carta, the Mayflower Compact, the US Constitution (especially the Bill of Rights), and then I survey the prevailing tribal warlord ochlocracy that still pervades WP, I just don't see that crowd ever evolving through the 4000 years of political history to arrive at 21st Century models of community.

[One]

Imagine that!

We'll probably never get Awbrey to come back now, though...

It might also keep away DL, Blissyu2, and four PoetSocks. Good trade, in my opinion.

A warm welcome, Hell Freezes Over.

[Dzonatas]

2005-2007 was the time of The Great Expansion at Wikipedia. When the world and his wife arrived to take control of topics. It was an era akin to an online World War Two. With accompanying Wiki-atrocities committed by many parties.

Two documents. Two sources.

Then:

Document A is a valid source found by person A.
Document B is a valid source.found by person B.

Document A is sourced and added to a wiki-page Z.
Person B says that document B is more notable and scholary than document A.
Person B goes through a long process to revert all details of document A out of the wiki-page Z.
Person B then blames person A for such process, and gets person A blocked.
Document A is no longer a part of any stable version of the wiki-page Z.
The wiki-page is in accords only with document B.
The sum of human knowledge minus document A.

Today:

Person C finds a news story about current event C.

Current event C is added to wiki-page Z..
If person B is friend of person C, then C's non-notable contribution to wiki-page Z is kept.

If person B is not a friend of person C, then person B reverts person C.
Person B then goes on to report person C as a puppet troll (even if person C isn't a puppet).
Person C gets blocked.

[Somey]

The account was manually added by Somey. It's the real McCoy.

The thing is, I wasn't really expecting Mr. Probey to see the new account, added in the wee hours of the morning, and start a new thread announcing who it was within 30 minutes of the addition. I sort of wanted to give her the option of posting semi-anonymously for a while, if she wanted to, seeing as how so many of us have posted about her anonymously here... not that it's really the same thing, but still. We might as well have just registered her as "Slimmy," under the circumstances.

Frankly, I'm not even sure I know how Probey figured it out, unless he was tipped off, or knows the password to my Gmail account! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)

If person B is not a friend of person C, then person B reverts person C.
Person B then goes on to report person C as a puppet troll (even if person C isn't a puppet).
Person C gets blocked.

In other words, internal cronyism now affects content and access to a much greater extent than source-reliability and editorial talent...?

You could have just said so... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)

[CharlotteWebb]

All I know is that this isn't the Wikipedia I joined. Whether it has changed, or I have, I honestly don't know.

That's like wondering whether the island is sinking or the sea is rising. You can't be sure of anything except that the water's too cold for swimming. Everything else is a matter of perspective.

I was thinking about a good literary analogy and the first thing I though about was the tempting of Galadriel in The Lord of the Ring. I could imagine you replacing Jimbo as the Wikipedia overlord.

I don't know, I just caught myself humming the theme from Cheers, the one sitcom which (unlike arbcom) never jumped the shark.

This is a humbling moment for everyone. Welcome, Slim.

[Somey]

That's like wondering whether the island is sinking or the sea is rising. You can't be sure of anything except that the water's too cold for swimming. Everything else is a matter of perspective.

That's defeatism, surely? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)

To use a real-world analogy, the people of Venice wondered the same thing, but they discussed it, studied it, and finally figured it out - industrial complexes on the mainland were pumping out groundwater aquifers, which was weakening the substrate that the islands were sitting on. Moreover, the pollutants being dumped into the lagoon were adding weight to the sea-bed, accelerating the slow collapse of the substrate. Once they realized that and stopped pumping, and did something to reduce the emissions, the sinking went back to a normal rate. Of course, the damage done during the 40-odd years of aquifer pump-out was enough to cause all sorts of enduring problems that are still going on, but they're actually working on trying to reverse the damage now, apparently. (At least if the Discovery Channel is to be believed...)

In most real-world bad situations, there actually is a culprit, and stopping the culprit can at least stop further damage, and give people a direction - either for getting back to where they were, or for getting to where they want to be. But it takes leadership and resolve, not to mention a willingness to admit there's a problem. Wikipedia hasn't had those things, but that doesn't mean people should give up trying to get them.

[Milton Roe]

Sarah's arrival here is sadly predictable.

It is the same path Kelly Martin trod.

1) Powerful user on wikipedia is criticised here as part of the evil cabal and power structure.
2) Powerful user come unstuck on wikipedia. Her stock falls and she loses influence.
3) Powerful user rails at the personal injustice, blames the system and becomes determined to bring it down.

What happens next it that

a) The user forgets all their problems with the disaffected users here. She see the light and understand that they are fellow-sufferers from the abuse and corruption on wikipedia.
b) The people here forget their problems with the user, who becomes an ally in the Great Fight against the system.

Yup. Trotsky has officially arrived in Mexico.

I haven't seen anything this weird since Russia joined NATO. I guess if you live long enough, you eventually see it all.

Welcome, Slim. And (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

[Sarcasticidealist]

I haven't seen anything this weird since Russia joined NATO. I guess if you live long enough, you eventually see it all.

You haven't lived long enough to see Russia join NATO, my friend, and I don't think you will.

[Milton Roe]

Did I call it right or what? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

You did. Most of us believe in the power of redemption here on WR, seeing as just about all of us drank the Kood Aid in one form or another, once. Except Somey.

And now the real acid test: suppose the WMF board finally kicks Jimbo out. Do you suppose he'll turn up here, complaining about it? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif)

I haven't seen anything this weird since Russia joined NATO. I guess if you live long enough, you eventually see it all.

You haven't lived long enough to see Russia join NATO, my friend, and I don't think you will.

That was a joke, of course. But never say never. Meanwhile, I'm content with Bulgaria.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/scream.gif)

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Jon was secretly quite fond of me, I think.

Welcome to the Review "Hell freezes over".

Welcome Slim.

When you have a moment could you comment at this thread? Thanks.

Moderator's note: They'll both also edit your posts to prevent unnecessary unpleasantness. (edit Somey)

Moderator's note: Yep I can't believe you are STILL being childish over having a picture of an animal's anus removed as your avatar (what was this, a month or more ago??)... Grow up! (edit Selina)

This post has been edited by Selina:

[Lar]

Sometimes I think I might have to re-think emoticons, at least in the company of those who have become dependent on their presence to denote irony.

You're too good at playing it straight, that got right past me. Well played, but ... Detecting irony and sarcasm are not my strong suits.

The account was manually added by Somey. It's the real McCoy.

Thank you for the confirmation.

[CharlotteWebb]

That's like wondering whether the island is sinking or the sea is rising. You can't be sure of anything except that the water's too cold for swimming. Everything else is a matter of perspective.

That's defeatism, surely? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)

Actually I think it's relativism. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

To use a real-world analogy, the people of Venice wondered the same thing, but they discussed it, studied it, and finally figured it out - industrial complexes on the mainland were pumping out groundwater aquifers, which was weakening the substrate that the islands were sitting on. Moreover, the pollutants being dumped into the lagoon were adding weight to the sea-bed, accelerating the slow collapse of the substrate. Once they realized that and stopped pumping, and did something to reduce the emissions, the sinking went back to a normal rate. Of course, the damage done during the 40-odd years of aquifer pump-out was enough to cause all sorts of enduring problems that are still going on, but they're actually working on trying to reverse the damage now, apparently. (At least if the Discovery Channel is to be believed...)

In most real-world bad situations, there actually is a culprit, and stopping the culprit can at least stop further damage, and give people a direction - either for getting back to where they were, or for getting to where they want to be. But it takes leadership and resolve, not to mention a willingness to admit there's a problem. Wikipedia hasn't had those things, but that doesn't mean people should give up trying to get them.

I've been able to identify two types of leaders on Wikipedia: those who say "swallow your pride", and those who say "wash it down with some kool-aid" (poisonous in either case). I do agree though. Everyone could use more resolve (a lot more), however I think all but the most abject leader-sheeps have admitted the existence of a problem.

But even if we're down in Arizona Bay floundering in the wake of a dirty gondola, and someone says "follow me to dry land, I've got tattoos to prove it" (as if we're begging for this) I wouldn't take it at face value. There's gotta be a catch somewhere.

Trust based on necessity tends to be abused and historically the most successful villains have been former "heroes".

This post has been edited by CharlotteWebb:

[Somey]

I've been able to identify two types of leaders on Wikipedia: those who say "swallow your pride", and those who say "wash it down with some kool-aid" (poisonous in either case). I do agree though. Everyone could use more resolve (a lot more), however I think all but the most abject leader-sheeps have admitted the existence of a problem.

Well, there you go!

And to get things slightly back on topic, I'd have to say that a lot of us here at WR might have to swallow our pride and admit that SlimVirgin's recent actions, which started out as a plea for sanity that ended up with her being desysopped and finally registering here, took a lot of courage - not physical courage of course, but the emotional/psychological kind, which may not be quite as hard for a person to muster, but still requires considerable fortitude.

But it's a complex situation - to the extent that the actions of FT2 and some of the other ArbCommers led to SV being desysopped, well, FT2 et al should be commended for that - because SV really shouldn't have been an admin, at least not for such a long time. But at the same time, FT2 is no slouch in the devious-trickery and capricious-rule-bending departments himself, like Dave Gerard and Co. before him. These things always go beyond "nobody's perfect" - everyone is capable of both good things and bad, often to an equal extent. SV's positive activities with respect to the BLP situation are another case in point.

So it's yet another reason why we should probably move away from personal sniping and mudslinging, and towards a more Big Picture approach to these kinds of problems - the problem is that a move in that direction goes against human nature, and human nature is a hard thing to overcome in a context like this.

[EuroSceptic]

Well, welcome, now that you know how it feels to be at the short end of the stick, maybe it is time you make some amends to people you have treated the same way as you were treated now.

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Holy cow! the moderators really gutted my post, it's not even funny anymore. Oh well, a moderator's job is a difficult and thankless one.

But can I just add back one little thing ... that Selina is the one who posted the infamous picture representing User:SlimVirgin with the visual opposite of "Slim" "Virgin" ?

[Moulton]

In the end, it comes down to narcissistic wounding and the total loss of the last shred of dignity.

[Somey]

But can I just add back one little thing ... that Selina is the one who posted the infamous picture representing User:SlimVirgin with the visual opposite of "Slim" "Virgin" ?

I think you just did! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

I just think it's important to point out that she doesn't do that to multiple individuals, and in fact only did it that one time, AFAIK. (I'd assume she was still rather angry about her WP experience at the time, but it was before I registered here, apparently.)

[wikiwhistle]

The only thing (as I've said before) I've found strange with Slim is why she used the name SV- on a site full of males it would draw trouble of one kind or another and is a strange choice IMHO. I arrived here long after most of the prroblems others here had with Slim nd have never got a grasp on what most of it was about.

My only direct editing experience of her editiing alongside of me was on Gillian McKeith, where ElinorD before she became an admin and I had BLP trouble. SV came in and saved the day. I also agree with her on a lot of other things, and think she has more principles than a lot of people on the project. Whethher you consder her right or wrong in any instance, she is doing what she thinks is right.

[SirFozzie]

Welcome, SV. *waves*

edit: Oh, and apropos of nothing, I can think of one or two users besides JA who I think would be on the verge of apoplexy to see SV post here.. which is even more reason to welcome SV here (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by SirFozzie:

[Milton Roe]

Whether you consder her right or wrong in any instance, she is doing what she thinks is right.

Even if so, most of the messes in this world are made by people who, on all evidence, are doing what they think is right. It's rare to see otherwise!

So this is thin apology indeed.

[CharlotteWebb]

But it's a complex situation - to the extent that the actions of FT2 and some of the other ArbCommers led to SV being desysopped, well, FT2 et al should be commended for that - because SV really shouldn't have been an admin, at least not for such a long time. But at the same time, FT2 is no slouch in the devious-trickery and capricious-rule-bending departments himself, like Dave Gerard and Co. before him.

Two wrongs don't make a right, plus he probably hasn't entered his prime yet. He's got until 2011, after which he will (with our luck) be replaced by someone worse.

These things always go beyond "nobody's perfect" - everyone is capable of both good things and bad, often to an equal extent.

True, most people never have to face the fact that, at the right time and the right place, they're capable of anything.

SV's positive activities with respect to the BLP situation are another case in point.

I've always had mixed feelings about the policy itself but I do believe it would be lining Jimbo's birdcage had it been spearheaded by anyone other than Slim, a well-respected admin.

(There is of course a huge chain of events which led up to the current situation. I feel an unexplainable guilt about some of them, being in some respects the butterfly in Tiananmen Square. I'm convinced I should have known better, but everyone will have their own theory.)

So it's yet another reason why we should probably move away from personal sniping and mudslinging, and towards a more Big Picture approach to these kinds of problems - the problem is that a move in that direction goes against human nature, and human nature is a hard thing to overcome in a context like this.

I think everyone will agree that I don't hold the solution to anything, so you can go first. What are your ideas?

[LessHorrid vanU]

Hi, Slim - I'm not sure if you have it in your powers, but personally I would be very grateful if Crum375 (or whatever, I don't care enough...) doesn't turn up here within the next 24 hours and starts trying to throw cudgels...

Sarah's arrival here is sadly predictable.

It is the same path Kelly Martin trod.

1) Powerful user on wikipedia is criticised here as part of the evil cabal and power structure.
2) Powerful user come unstuck on wikipedia. Her stock falls and she loses influence.
3) Powerful user rails at the personal injustice, blames the system and becomes determined to bring it down.

What happens next it that

a) The user forgets all their problems with the disaffected users here. She see the light and understand that they are fellow-sufferers from the abuse and corruption on wikipedia.
b) The people here forget their problems with the user, who becomes an ally in the Great Fight against the system.

My enemy's enemy is my new best friend?

Slim, whatever happened to Badsites?

This is of course exactly what happened with me, with just a few exceptions;
1) Not powerful (and rarely mentioned here)
2) Not yet unstuck - but then not yet stuck either
3) er... nah!

What happened then

a) Um... Once I had got the sysop bit I decided to take a gander, and was fortunate enough to catch Johnny Cache when he still used humour and wit to make his points.

Back to the topic in hand;
I worked with SV on a few things, and opposed on a couple more; I found her to be very effective, but not someone to rely on.

[gomi]

Welcome, Slim. Your presence here not only continues to validate the Review as a credible source of criticism about Wikipedia and its politics, but will (I hope) raise the overall level of discourse.

That having been said, we all know that "free speech" is often very ugly, and everyone needs to remember that while we strive to shed more light than heat on issues, the Review does not have WP:CIV, WP:NPA, or any other of the meretricious and ineffective behavioural policies of Wikipedia. Historically, successful members here who have been former Wikipedians need to have a fairly thick skin. While you likely have developed that already, it bears remembering that the "rules" here, such as they are, are quite different.

Good luck, and I'm sorry I'll miss any excitement, as I will be scarce for a while, what with the holidays and all.

Hi, Slim - I'm not sure if you have it in your powers, but personally I would be very grateful if Crum375 (or whatever, I don't care enough...) doesn't turn up here within the next 24 hours and starts trying to throw cudgels...

That is a sentiment that I must second. We have very, very little "prior restraint" here on who registers, and I hope that none of Slim's erstwhile allies take it upon themselves to make our lives difficult.

[EricBarbour]

Yup. Trotsky has officially arrived in Mexico.

And who is her Mercader? FT2? Not likely.

Mercader was apparently a mama's-boy but still had the guts to brain Trotsky with an ice axe.
FT2 is a liar, a coward and a backstabber.

Welcome, SV.

NOW that you have become a victim of the WP nut-squad, are you willing to admit that WP has massive systemic internal problems? And would you be willing to agree that it all started with Jimbo and his poor management of the project?

[GlassBeadGame]

Yup. Trotsky has officially arrived in Mexico.

And who is her Mercader? FT2? Not likely.

Mercader was apparently a mama's-boy but still had the guts to brain Trotsky with an ice axe.
FT2 is a liar, a coward and a backstabber.

Welcome, SV.

NOW that you have become a victim of the WP nut-squad, are you willing to admit that WP has massive systemic internal problems? And would you be willing to agree that it all started with Jimbo and his poor management of the project?

Why so grim? The real question is "Who is Frida Kahlo?" ¡Bienvenidos a Mexico!

[Peter Damian]

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=9433

Jon was secretly quite fond of me, I think.

I am quite fond of you, as you know.

[edit] Oh , and er, welcome.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[wikiwhistle]

These things always go beyond "nobody's perfect" - everyone is capable of both good things and bad, often to an equal extent.

True, most people never have to face the fact that, at the right time and the right place, they're capable of anything.

You think so? I think that comes to us all eventually, at least realizing we have done some things that are wrong/are capable of doing so.

[Mr. Mystery]

Welcome to the Review, my Queen! (bows down.)

This post has been edited by Mr. Mystery:

[Alison]

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=9433

Jon was secretly quite fond of me, I think.

Wow!! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wtf.gif)

Welcome to Wikipedia Review, SlimVirgin. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[EuroSceptic]

Hell frozen over

(IMG:http://farm1.static.flickr.com/55/113830985_09f377146d.jpg)

[Cedric]

Hell frozen over

[img]

It does that every winter. It's in Michigan, you know. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[Hell Freezes Over]

I'd be interested to hear from some of the current anti-Arbcom crowd why this arbcom - and FT2 - is so much worse than the Arbcoms of old featuring the likes of Fred Bauder, Jayjg and David Gerard?

Why should we not assume that this current animosity is simply typical of the frustrations people get when they've stuck around too long and have become over-obsessed with paranoia fueled Wikipolitics? Completely warping their judgment?

Kato, you may be right on the last point, but this ArbCom feels quite different to me. We've always had problems with the ArbCom, in part because of the people it started out with, and the very long terms, so the same people are on it for years, some of them not editing much, losing touch with the community. And people joined it for the wrong reasons, wanting access to the tools, but not wanting to pour through mountains of evidence, so cases are left to hang. Then there's the IRC issue, with lots of them involved in that, which is very divisive.

But this ArbCom seems even worse than the others. Previous committees were less hands-on. ArbCom enforcement, for example, was something they rarely got involved in. But this committee wants to do all, be all.

Peter being blocked for questioning FT2 was a sign of things to come, though I have to say that, once they started making decisions, I thought they were an improvement. I saw Brad and FT2's long explanations, and I thought great, we've never an ArbCom that bothered to explain anything. But then it became clear that a power grab was underway, almost always by FT2, who would e.g. turn up to edit policy and refuse to be reverted because he was on the committee, and who took over a "reform" of IRC that basically changed nothing. (And you could see his modus operandi right there -- he posted on the admins channel that he'd written a review, and anyone who wanted to see it and have input should e-mail him, but he only responded to the e-mail if you were one of the IRC in-crowd. Then, later, when anyone said, hang on, when was all this decided, he'd claim there had been a review and community consultation, and if you couldn't be bothered to take part in it, that was your own fault.)

Regardless of the personalities, the problem with ArbCom is Jimbo. It's the vehicle he uses to control the English Wikipedia. They do his grunt work, and unpopular decisions can be blamed on them. So the committee has to be strong, and it has to be loyal to him. That means he'll support them on any issue he doesn't really care about, and will let them overrule him occasionally (which allows them all to laugh loudly when accused of kow-towing to Jimbo), but when he does care, he expects them to fall in line.

The less control Jimbo has through his own charisma, influence on the board, and reputation, the more powerful he needs the committee to be. When the regal wave of the hand doesn't work anymore, a more substantive power grab has to take place, and that's what I see underway.

[Doc glasgow]

Then there's the IRC issue, with lots of them involved in that, which is very divisive.

Untrue. A minority of arbs use the admins IRC channel, and almost none are now present on a regular basis.

Regardless of the personalities, the problem with ArbCom is Jimbo. It's the vehicle he uses to control the English Wikipedia. They do his grunt work, and unpopular decisions can be blamed on them. So the committee has to be strong, and it has to be loyal to him. That means he'll support them on any issue he doesn't really care about, and will let them overrule him occasionally (which allows them all to laugh loudly when accused of kow-towing to Jimbo), but when he does care, he expects them to fall in line.

Have you any evidence for this? This is constantly repeated but never explained. The last time Jimbo made a public request to arbcom (over the rollback fiasco) they ignored him.

This rant will play well to the paranoid section of the gallery here, but it never substantiated.

The less control Jimbo has through his own charisma, influence on the board, and reputation, the more powerful he needs the committee to be. When the regal wave of the hand doesn't work anymore, a more substantive power grab has to take place, and that's what I see underway.

Oh come on. The problem with arbcom is the lack of powergrabbing.

But really, answer this. What precisely is the power Jimbo is trying to grab? Where is it? And to what end is he using it?

Motive?

[Milton Roe]

Why so grim? The real question is "Who is Frida Kahlo?"

Why, Tony Sidaway. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Kelly Martin]

Regardless of the personalities, the problem with ArbCom is Jimbo. It's the vehicle he uses to control the English Wikipedia. They do his grunt work, and unpopular decisions can be blamed on them. So the committee has to be strong, and it has to be loyal to him. That means he'll support them on any issue he doesn't really care about, and will let them overrule him occasionally (which allows them all to laugh loudly when accused of kow-towing to Jimbo), but when he does care, he expects them to fall in line.

You give Jimbo too much credit. He is not bright enough to machinate such clever maneuvering.

Most of the "real" requests Jimbo makes are made in private, and under seal of confidence; failure to comply with those requests is grounds for expulsion from the inner circle. The public requests are for matters where he doesn't really care personally, but where it would be advantageous to him (for some reason) to appear to care.

The purpose of ArbCom is to keep Jimmy from having to deal with things he isn't interested in dealing with, while at the same time preserving his personal authority.

I do agree with you that FT2 is engaged in a power grab; it's obvious to me that he's trying to set himself up as Jimbo's prime minister, in much the way James Forrester attempted previously but failed.

[Hell Freezes Over]

The purpose of ArbCom is to keep Jimmy from having to deal with things he isn't interested in dealing with, while at the same time preserving his personal authority.

Or things he does want to deal with, but knows will be unpopular, so the ArbCom gets blamed, with an appeal to Jimbo as the last recourse. At which point he'll refuse to overrule the committee, not necessarily because he agrees with them, he'll say, but because he has to respect the process.

I do agree with you that FT2 is engaged in a power grab; it's obvious to me that he's trying to set himself up as Jimbo's prime minister, in much the way James Forrester attempted previously but failed.

And he's succeeding, to judge by some of the issues I've seen in private. I think it will backfire on the entire project, Jimbo included, though he can't see it.

This post has been edited by Hell Freezes Over:

[Milton Roe]

The purpose of ArbCom is to keep Jimmy from having to deal with things he isn't interested in dealing with, while at the same time preserving his personal authority.

And that is the story of Jimbo's life: a quest for maximal power with minimal personal responsibility. It's one of the main recurring themes of the structure of Wikipedia as a whole, also. It may even be the unifying one.

[Doc glasgow]

The purpose of ArbCom is to keep Jimmy from having to deal with things he isn't interested in dealing with, while at the same time preserving his personal authority.

Or things he does want to deal with, but knows will be unpopular, so the ArbCom gets blamed, with an appeal to Jimbo as the last recourse. At which point he'll refuse to overrule the committee, not necessarily because he agrees with them, he'll say, but because he has to respect the process.

I do agree with you that FT2 is engaged in a power grab; it's obvious to me that he's trying to set himself up as Jimbo's prime minister, in much the way James Forrester attempted previously but failed.

And he's succeeding, to judge by some of the issues I've seen in private. I think it will backfire on the entire project, Jimbo included, though he can't see it.

Rubbish.

The "Jimbo power" paranoia is bullshit without evidence. Jimbo rarely bothers with wikipedia, and whilst the prestige may flatter him, he simply isn't exercising any sort of contol whatsoever. That's what makes his role in appointments seem so strange.

Tell me, where is it that Jimbo is exercising power? And what's he supposed to be doing with it?

As for FT2, if it's a power-grab it is both a failed one, and typical of most wikipedians who are trying to get, keep and maintain power in some manner - unless they've lost it, in which case they come here.

The purpose of ArbCom is to keep Jimmy from having to deal with things he isn't interested in dealing with, while at the same time preserving his personal authority.

And that is the story of Jimbo's life: a quest for maximal power with minimal personal responsibility. It's one of the main recurring themes of the structure of Wikipedia as a whole, also. It may even be the unifying one.

I'm no Jimbo fan, but I think this is one of the main recurring themes of the structure of Wikipedia Review as a whole, also. It may even be the unifying one.

[The Wales Hunter]

Look, this may not be totally on topic, but why are we even looking for reasons why Jimbo should be removed? He exchanged sexual favours to alter a BLP and then chucked the woman via Wikipedia!

Come on, we can look for evidence of power grabbing all we want, but is it even necessary?

[Heat]

To Kelly Martin's credit, she has been quite willing to admit abuses of power she engaged in when she had authority on wikipedia and has apologized and tried to make amends. She's set a rather high bar. Hopefully, Hell will see fit to meet the standard Kelly has set.

That aside, I hope we'll see an end to the conspiracy theories that the more obsessive of wikipedia's critics have generated in regards to SV.

[Kelly Martin]

Or things he does want to deal with, but knows will be unpopular, so the ArbCom gets blamed, with an appeal to Jimbo as the last recourse. At which point he'll refuse to overrule the committee, not necessarily because he agrees with them, he'll say, but because he has to respect the process.

I think you're wrong in this regard. Jimbo almost always tries to deal with anything that he actually cares about through private channels first, and through proxies if at all possible, only invoking his personal authority when it is likely that he can do so without harming his own reputation. Fundamentally it all springs (as Milton points out) from Jimbo's personal motivation to be powerful without responsibility. Jimbo is also an extreme coward, preferring to pass risk off to others whenever possible.

Fundamentally, Jimbo doesn't care much at all about Wikipedia; only when something on Wikipedia is personally embarrassing or problematic for him does he get involved. Of course, this occurs vaguely at random; there's no telling when Jimmy will take personal offense to something on Wikipedia. The thing to understand about Jimmy isn't that he does things like this because he is machinating something specifically to his own benefit; instead, virtually all of this stuff he does is defensive, intended to protect him from damage. He's virtually always in damage control mode. Attributing his actions to deliberate, planned out machinations is simply mistaken. He's just not that clever.

[Somey]

Come on, we can look for evidence of power grabbing all we want, but is it even necessary?

I wouldn't think so, personally, but I'm probably biased...

I don't think it's even clear how we're defining the word "power." In Wikiland, there's the power to influence and direct policy and establish procedures for doing things, which nobody seems to have, and then there's the power to determine who wins and who loses in a dispute - and who gets banned, or whatever - which just about all the admins seem to think they have. And then there's the power to stop people from reverting your edits, which seems to be what everyone actually wants.

It seems to me that the very nature of a wiki is such that everyone remains disempowered, only able to make temporary gains and achieve petty victories that are easily lost later on. But few people realize or accept that, because the "editing tools" are always there, in front of you, telling you "no, look at us, you can still have the power." Meanwhile, very few people manage to "take it to the next level" after starting out in the trenches... People like Erik Moeller, Cary Bass, and Florence Devouard have managed to sort of do that by getting on the Board of Trustees or getting jobs with the Foundation, but even then, that's not the sort of power we're talking about here, is it?

[Moulton]

What precisely is the power Jimbo is trying to grab? Where is it? And to what end is he using it?

Motive?

He is trying to grab the power to control what information is published about him and his inner circle.

Recall that Jimbo's worst fear is that the project will fall into disrepute. Jimbo desperately wants to be seen as reputable.

Jimbo is like a Klingon — he demands honor, dignity, and respect, and he won't hesitate to use the jackboot against anyone who fails to honor him.

Of course, his willingness to employ the jackboot (indeed it's his primary tool) inherently makes him disreputable.

When King Henry wailed, "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" a sycophant obliged him.

But on the Internet, Becket cannot be slain. Meddlesome priests can trivially resurrect themselves without divine intervention.

In these dramas, I find it quite intriguing to play the role of Becket, Langton, Alice, or Harry Skywalker going up against Darth Voldemort and the Red Queen.

After all, as Lewis Carroll suggests, it's only a chess game.

Tell me, where is it that Jimbo is exercising power? And what's he supposed to be doing with it?

Recently, on Wikiversity, where he made his second cameo appearance to baleet content that exposed corruption in the ranks.

Here is a sample of the evidentiary record...

1. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...&action=history

2. http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Con...ons/Jimbo_Wales

3. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...ser=Jimbo_Wales

4. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...514&type=delete

5. http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/~bkort/Media...lConundrum.html

Obviously I must be doing something right if Jimbo personally steps in to site-ban me on all wikis, personally delete my pages (and protect them) and to delete all inquiries from the utterly gobsmacked admins there.

[Heat]

I don't think it's a matter of Jimbo accruing power behind the scenes but the exact opposite, he's less involved in wikipedia's day to day functioning than ever and the Arbcom and a few individuals in particular are attempting to fill the vacuum.

Quite frankly, it wasn't that long ago that SV and the circle she was involved with tried, with some success, to fill that vacuum and become their own nexus of power (deliberately or not). The only thing that's different now is one clique has been displaced by another. The first clique may justify their past authority by claiming that they were righteous and guided by principles and the new clique just wants power but to those who are in neither clique or have been victimized by the the first clique it doesn't appear to be quite so virtuous.

[Proabivouac]

The first clique may justify their past authority by claiming that they were righteous and guided by principles and the new clique just wants power but to those who are in neither clique or have been victimized by the the first clique it doesn't appear to be quite so virtuous.

How were you victimized by the first clique? Tell us your story.

[Sarcasticidealist]

That aside, I hope we'll see an end to the conspiracy theories that the more obsessive of wikipedia's critics have generated in regards to SV.

Are you kidding? Her appearance here only confirms that WR was part of the conspiracy all along.

[Alison]

That aside, I hope we'll see an end to the conspiracy theories that the more obsessive of wikipedia's critics have generated in regards to SV.

Are you kidding? Her appearance here only confirms that WR was part of the conspiracy all along.

Daniel Brandt is going to love this. After all, it surely must confirm that myself and Slim are .. uh .. "in league" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

[The Wales Hunter]

Daniel Brandt is going to love this. After all, it surely must confirm that myself and Slim are .. uh .. "in league" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

I believe the correct expression in such circumstances is *fap*fap*fap* (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

Seriously, I'm sure there are many who believe the problem with Wiki has always been the system, rather than the specific individual personalities who come and go. We have a chance here to really embrace the larger picture, rather than the fluff.

[wikiwhistle]

Daniel Brandt is going to love this. After all, it surely must confirm that myself and Slim are .. uh .. "in league" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

I believe the correct expression in such circumstances is *fap*fap*fap* (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

Maybe you are dear. I won't unless the ladies ask me to join in (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[Alison]

Daniel Brandt is going to love this. After all, it surely must confirm that myself and Slim are .. uh .. "in league" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

I believe the correct expression in such circumstances is *fap*fap*fap* (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

Ewww (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/yak.gif)

Seriously, I'm sure there are many who believe the problem with Wiki has always been the system, rather than the specific individual personalities who come and go. We have a chance here to really embrace the larger picture, rather than the fluff.

I think for many people, including the aforementioned, it's all about personalities and their various grudges (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)

[Milton Roe]

The "Jimbo power" paranoia is bullshit without evidence. Jimbo rarely bothers with wikipedia, and whilst the prestige may flatter him, he simply isn't exercising any sort of contol whatsoever. That's what makes his role in appointments seem so strange.

Tell me, where is it that Jimbo is exercising power? And what's he supposed to be doing with it?

You are kidding, yes? The multi-thousand dollar speaking fees taking credit for work others did, the siphoning off of content for his own profit-making Wikia (nevermind that he's incompetent at it), the construction of an internet machine which is capable of making any viewpoint and any biography of any living person, the top of the list in the Google search for more than a billion people? The use of this for sexual conquest?

A bit ago I was complaining about the irresponsible way that Wikipedia placed publishing power in the hands of people without editorial control. In a related debate about how damaging it is intrinsically to screw up internet data and reputations, Wikipedia's FT2 opined that Wikipedia was like a car left with the keys in it, at a gas station. If somebody steals and misuses it, it's not the owner's fault.

Well, I disagree. Wrong metaphor. Wikipedia is rather like having your backyard pool unfenced, with nothing more than a sign saying "PUBLIC WELCOME. NO LIFEGUARD." When they find a 3-year old at the bottom of it, this kind of thing is what is called an "attractive nuissance." With the world nuissance understood as being understated. Wikipedia is an attractive nuissance. It is protected by arcane laws which weren't meant to do what they are doing at present, but that doesn't make Wikipedia any less of a problem.

Wikipedia is a barrel of whiskey left on your front porch: "Free booze, must be over 21". Or perhaps a pile of loaded firearms: "PLEASE RETURN CLEAN." But the odd sec 230 keeps them from having the crap sued out of them.

Jimbo is largely responsible for this sorry state. It's one he still could change if he wanted to, since he retains the loyalty of the WMF board right now. It has happened under his control. He has resisted all efforts to change it. In fact, he has profited or benefitted from the way things are, in ways that have been mentioned.

The purpose of ArbCom is to keep Jimmy from having to deal with things he isn't interested in dealing with, while at the same time preserving his personal authority.

And that is the story of Jimbo's life: a quest for maximal power with minimal personal responsibility. It's one of the main recurring themes of the structure of Wikipedia as a whole, also. It may even be the unifying one.

I'm no Jimbo fan, but I think this is one of the main recurring themes of the structure of Wikipedia Review as a whole, also. It may even be the unifying one.

Say, what? Doc, this is another one of your posts that rates a glasgow score of 3.

This is my 3,000th post here on WR, and if there's any power to be had here (much less any that is fungible into sex or money) I'm doing something way-the-hell wrong. I have no power here, nor any responsibility. That's fine.

I edit here mainly to blow off steam so that I don't end up saying the same things on Wikipedia and give them an excuse to block me for "trolling" and "disruption" for pointing out their own corruption and irresponsibility. I'm under no illusion that what I say here has much influence over anything.

But when I do edit over on WP, I use my own real name. As you've started to do recently, but I did from the beginning. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

[tarantino]

What precisely is the power Jimbo is trying to grab? Where is it? And to what end is he using it?

Motive?

He is trying to grab the power to control what information is published about him and his inner circle.

Recall that Jimbo's worst fear is that the project will fall into disrepute. Jimbo desperately wants to be seen as reputable.

Jimbo is like a Klingon — he demands honor, dignity, and respect, and he won't hesitate to use the jackboot against anyone who fails to honor him.

Of course, his willingness to employ the jackboot (indeed it's his primary tool) inherently makes him disreputable.

When King Henry wailed, "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" a sycophant obliged him.

But on the Internet, Becket cannot be slain. Meddlesome priests can trivially resurrect themselves without divine intervention.

In these dramas, I find it quite intriguing to play the role of Becket, Langton, Alice, or Harry Skywalker going up against Darth Voldemort and the Red Queen.

After all, as Lewis Carroll suggests, it's only a chess game.

Tell me, where is it that Jimbo is exercising power? And what's he supposed to be doing with it?

Recently, on Wikiversity, where he made his second cameo appearance to baleet content that exposed corruption in the ranks.

Here is a sample of the evidentiary record...

1. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...&action=history

2. http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Con...ons/Jimbo_Wales

3. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...ser=Jimbo_Wales

4. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...514&type=delete

5. http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/~bkort/Media...lConundrum.html

Obviously I must be doing something right if Jimbo personally steps in to site-ban me on all wikis, personally delete my pages (and protect them) and to delete all inquiries from the utterly gobsmacked admins there.

Jimbo's not even a custodian on enwikiversity, Where's the log that shows he temporarily assumed that power? It's neither on enwikiversity or meta. Is the Founder bit omnipotent across all projects now?

[Somey]

I'm no Jimbo fan, but I think this is one of the main recurring themes of the structure of Wikipedia Review as a whole, also. It may even be the unifying one.

Say, what? Doc, this is another one of your posts that rates a glasgow score of 3.

I'm still hoping someone can explain to me how website structures can have "unifying recurring themes"...

[Mr. Mystery]

my question is, why does jimbo feel he needs to maintain even nominal control of arbcom? if i were him, i'd just deal with and represent the board in the real world and have nothing to do with the on-site politics. it's kind of ridiculous, like "i'm the sole-founder, and i also play one on wp."

the arbcom will be his undoing, i think, on the site, anyway.

[everyking]

I'd be interested to hear from some of the current anti-Arbcom crowd why this arbcom - and FT2 - is so much worse than the Arbcoms of old featuring the likes of Fred Bauder, Jayjg and David Gerard?

Why should we not assume that this current animosity is simply typical of the frustrations people get when they've stuck around too long and have become over-obsessed with paranoia fueled Wikipolitics? Completely warping their judgment?

Kato, you may be right on the last point, but this ArbCom feels quite different to me. We've always had problems with the ArbCom, in part because of the people it started out with, and the very long terms, so the same people are on it for years, some of them not editing much, losing touch with the community. And people joined it for the wrong reasons, wanting access to the tools, but not wanting to pour through mountains of evidence, so cases are left to hang. Then there's the IRC issue, with lots of them involved in that, which is very divisive.

But this ArbCom seems even worse than the others. Previous committees were less hands-on. ArbCom enforcement, for example, was something they rarely got involved in. But this committee wants to do all, be all.

Peter being blocked for questioning FT2 was a sign of things to come, though I have to say that, once they started making decisions, I thought they were an improvement. I saw Brad and FT2's long explanations, and I thought great, we've never an ArbCom that bothered to explain anything. But then it became clear that a power grab was underway, almost always by FT2, who would e.g. turn up to edit policy and refuse to be reverted because he was on the committee, and who took over a "reform" of IRC that basically changed nothing. (And you could see his modus operandi right there -- he posted on the admins channel that he'd written a review, and anyone who wanted to see it and have input should e-mail him, but he only responded to the e-mail if you were one of the IRC in-crowd. Then, later, when anyone said, hang on, when was all this decided, he'd claim there had been a review and community consultation, and if you couldn't be bothered to take part in it, that was your own fault.)

Regardless of the personalities, the problem with ArbCom is Jimbo. It's the vehicle he uses to control the English Wikipedia. They do his grunt work, and unpopular decisions can be blamed on them. So the committee has to be strong, and it has to be loyal to him. That means he'll support them on any issue he doesn't really care about, and will let them overrule him occasionally (which allows them all to laugh loudly when accused of kow-towing to Jimbo), but when he does care, he expects them to fall in line.

The less control Jimbo has through his own charisma, influence on the board, and reputation, the more powerful he needs the committee to be. When the regal wave of the hand doesn't work anymore, a more substantive power grab has to take place, and that's what I see underway.

I don't think this ArbCom is worse in terms of the basic quality of its rulings and the thinking that goes into them, with regard to the facts of the cases and effective or ineffective solutions. Actually, I think it has improved in that regard: rulings are now somewhat more intelligent than they were in past years, and the ArbCom is slightly more communicative now, although the ArbCom's work is still largely dismal and counter-productive.

Despite the small improvements (which are mostly due to the Brad effect), the community itself has matured and now expects better rulings and better methods, and is now more willing to speak up about it. The ArbCom does not react appropriately, does not change its ways in response to community feeling, and in response to the erosion of its power over the community it has begun taking direct measures to enforce discipline. This has deepened and highlighted the divorce between the ArbCom and the community and has raised discontent to an all-time high.

This post has been edited by everyking:

[Milton Roe]

I'm no Jimbo fan, but I think this is one of the main recurring themes of the structure of Wikipedia Review as a whole, also. It may even be the unifying one.

Say, what? Doc, this is another one of your posts that rates a glasgow score of 3.

I'm still hoping someone can explain to me how website structures can have "unifying recurring themes"...

It's in their rules. We have far fewer.

[Moulton]

NukneH?

What precisely is the power Jimbo is trying to grab? Where is it? And to what end is he using it?

Motive?

He is trying to grab the power to control what information is published about him and his inner circle.

Recall that Jimbo's worst fear is that the project will fall into disrepute. Jimbo desperately wants to be seen as reputable.

Jimbo is like a Klingon — he demands honor, dignity, and respect, and he won't hesitate to use the jackboot against anyone who fails to honor him.

Of course, his willingness to employ the jackboot (indeed it's his primary tool) inherently makes him disreputable.

When King Henry wailed, "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" a sycophant obliged him.

But on the Internet, Becket cannot be slain. Meddlesome priests can trivially resurrect themselves without divine intervention.

In these dramas, I find it quite intriguing to play the role of Becket, Langton, Alice, or Harry Skywalker going up against Darth Voldemort and the Red Queen.

After all, as Lewis Carroll suggests, it's only a chess game.

Tell me, where is it that Jimbo is exercising power? And what's he supposed to be doing with it?

Recently, on Wikiversity, where he made his second cameo appearance to baleet content that exposed corruption in the ranks.

Here is a sample of the evidentiary record...

1. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...&action=history

2. http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Con...ons/Jimbo_Wales

3. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...ser=Jimbo_Wales

4. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?titl...514&type=delete

5. http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/~bkort/Media...lConundrum.html

Obviously I must be doing something right if Jimbo personally steps in to site-ban me on all wikis, personally delete my pages (and protect them) and to delete all inquiries from the utterly gobsmacked admins there.

Jimbo's not even a custodian on enwikiversity, Where's the log that shows he temporarily assumed that power? It's neither on enwikiversity or meta. Is the Founder bit omnipotent across all projects now?

Jimbo had never appeared on Wikiversity before. His first appearance (and every appearance since then) has been to don his jackboots, asserted unrestricted power, wield the banhammer, and burn down the library. He asserted his unlimited power here (item #5, above), where he leveled this threat:

Don't waste my time with bullshit or I will just personally block you at wikiversity and that will be that.

The "bullshit" was the right to consult counsel when dealing with Jimbo. Jimbo was incensed that I had the temerity to consult counsel after Jimbo approached me, asking me to quietly redact a silly song parody on my blog.

Notice his threatening remark on Wikiversity to Dan Tobias, too:

Dtobias, I am happy to remove you from the project as well if necessary.

This is the Jimbonic Jackboot Culture that Mr. Wales introjected into Wikiversity. And true to the story of Alice and the Red Queen, an impressionable young pack of cards lined up to echo the refrain, "Off with his head! Off with his head!" But the tiny handful of real scholars there were aghast and appalled. Jimbo deleted and ignored their inquiries into WTF he was doing in the name of WMF.

And Wikiversity was thus thrown into a turmoil, from which it has never recovered.

[Gold heart]

Don't waste my time with bullshit or I will just personally block you at wikiversity and that will be that.

The "bullshit" was the right to consult counsel when dealing with Jimbo. Jimbo was incensed that I had the temerity to consult counsel after Jimbo approached me, asking me to quietly redact a silly song parody on my blog.
Notice his threatening remark on Wikiversity to Dan Tobias, too:

It's good to see that indeed 'the pen is mightier than the sword'.

I often think that Jimbo's greatest fear is that he is going to be usurped, like Old Major in Animal Farm, if my memory serves me correctly. Much of his 'stuff' is powered by those insecurities of being 'booted out', the pack might turn and kill the master. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)

[Herschelkrustofsky]

In these dramas, I find it quite intriguing to play the role of Becket, Langton, Alice, or Harry Skywalker

...or Ed Grimley.

[Alex]

Jimbo's not even a custodian on enwikiversity, Where's the log that shows he temporarily assumed that power? It's neither on enwikiversity or meta. Is the Founder bit omnipotent across all projects now?

He's a steward. Stewards have admin rights on all wikis.

[EuroSceptic]

All I see in Hell is someone who was in power and lost it and now is upset. Quite frankly, the ArbCom is doing some serious good work, including the desysoping of Hell.

And an ArbCom is only worth as much as they can actually see its ruling enforced. So yes, there is a massive power struggle going on, in which the power is shifted from an informal cabal that included Hell, to a more formal group that actually deals with some of the old informal cabal abuse.

[WordBomb]

This is a dumb question, and possibly somewhat insulting towards the staff, but we have confirmed that this is actually Slim, right?

√confirmed

I presumed this thread was simply a reference to the recent snowfall in Las Vegas. No...this is much stranger, and an apparent part of the evolution of SV I've commented on here more than once. Still, I'm kind of freaked out, and recommend that everybody repent, etc.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

So yes, there is a massive power struggle going on, in which the power is shifted from an informal cabal that included Hell, to a more formal group that actually deals with some of the old informal cabal abuse.

That is devoutly to be wished for, but it was not the case with SV/Hell, at least not in any direct fashion. Her actual transgressions were not the basis for the desysopping.

[Mr. Mystery]

I often think that Jimbo's greatest fear is that he is going to be usurped, like Old Major in Animal Farm, if my memory serves me correctly. Much of his 'stuff' is powered by those insecurities of being 'booted out', the pack might turn and kill the master. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)

i agree, but the fear is irrational. even if there were a full-scale wiki-revolution, and a new ruling clique were able to ban Jimbo and his minions from the site, (which should have happened naturally as the site grew popular, due to his blazingly obvious COI, not to mention outright abuse of "god-king" privileges) he'd still have his position on the foundation board and speaking engagements, etc. and if the foundation were to boot him, he'd still have his fame and public persona. his real world popularity and all it entails is not in any way dependent on him being able to call shots on wikipedia; his on-site attempts at "leadership" make him look like an idiot who continually gets played, most often by his sycophants than by those who deliberately troll him.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Still, I'm kind of freaked out, and recommend that everybody repent, etc.

Amen.

[Moulton]

I'm kind of freaked out, and recommend that everybody repent, etc.

Here we go again...

Bloody Hell

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. —Luke 15:7

The Murderous Future Culture of Wiki-Repentance?

WTF Is That?

Blather. Rinse. Baleet.

This post has been edited by Moulton:

[dtobias]

Notice his threatening remark on Wikiversity to Dan Tobias, too:

Dtobias, I am happy to remove you from the project as well if necessary.

Yes, I don't think the way Jimbo treated me (in an offhand, drive-by way) was fair or reasonable... but, unlike you, I didn't devote all my efforts in multiple sites over an extended period to attacking and denouncing Jimbo and the entire site in retaliation, until multiple people of multiple political persuasions were all so pissed at me that there was no major resistance to banning me just about everywhere. Instead, I made a few calm remarks to the effect that I disagreed with the fairness of the comment, then moved on to other things, resulting in a current state of affairs where I'm not blocked or banned from any project.

I'm fully capable of obsessive-compulsive behavior, and edged in that direction for a while when I was in the thick of the BADSITES wars (in the process pissing various people off, some of whom were even at least partly on my side politically), but in a calmer mode I know that acting this way is not a productive way of accomplishing rational change.

[Milton Roe]

I presumed this thread was simply a reference to the recent snowfall in Las Vegas. No...this is much stranger, and an apparent part of the evolution of SV I've commented on here more than once. Still, I'm kind of freaked out, and recommend that everybody repent, etc.

I'm still sticking with my theory that this year she's finally discovered a really good source of Canadian weed. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) But whatever it takes. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)