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| TungstenCarbide |
Sat 14th March 2009, 3:51pm
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#61
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Allegedly shot down by stray Ukrainian missile ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Regulars Posts: 1,405 Joined: Sat 14th Mar 2009, 6:12am Member No.: 10,787 WP user page - talk check - contribs |
What is so magical about the first sentence of articles that they must contain every spelling, pronunciation, translation, transliteration and etymology known? Why must it be there and no where else?
More specifically, why does everything in red have to be in the first sentance? Kyrgyzstan (pronounced /ˈkɝːɡɪstæn/; KƏR-gis-tahn; Kyrgyz: Кыргызстан [qɯrʀɯzˈstɑn]; Russian: Киргизия [kirˈɡizija] or Киргизстан [ˈkirɡistan] or Кыргызстан [ˈkˠɨrɡˠɨzstan], variously transliterated, also Kirgizia or Kirghizia), officially the Kyrgyz Republic, is a country in Central Asia. Landlocked and mountainous, it is bordered by Kazakhstan to the north, Uzbekistan to the west, Tajikistan to the southwest and China to the east. The ethnonym "Kyrgyz", after which the country is named, is thought to originally mean either "forty girls" or "forty tribes", presumably referring to the epic hero Manas who, as legend has it, unified forty tribes against the Mongols.[citation needed] According to popular interpretations, the 40-ray sun on the flag of Kyrgyzstan symbolizes the forty tribes of Manas. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=269348830 there are even more hidious examples at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_tal...ages_in_opening and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_tal...ing_clusterfuck I made some notes on my user page but it was spitefully deleted after I was banned. Is there an administrator without their head up their ass who can undelete my page? thanks. This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sat 14th March 2009, 3:57pm |
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| CharlotteWebb |
Sat 14th March 2009, 5:12pm
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#62
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Postmaster General ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Regulars Posts: 2,740 Joined: Mon 18th Jun 2007, 2:09am Member No.: 1,727 WP user page - talk check - contribs |
Kyrgyzstan (pronounced /ˈkɝːɡɪstæn/; KƏR-gis-tahn; Kyrgyz: Кыргызстан [qɯrʀɯzˈstɑn]; Russian: Киргизия [kirˈɡizija] or Киргизстан [ˈkirɡistan] or Кыргызстан [ˈkˠɨrɡˠɨzstan], variously transliterated, also Kirgizia or Kirghizia) The weight of the latter names outside the [[Kyrgyz SSR]] page seems a little bit undue. Perhaps putting it in a footnote or an ==Exonyms for Kyrgyzstan== section would be the best compromise, or maybe a separate article—we have quite a few in [[Category:Country name etymology]]. QUOTE ...originally mean either "forty girls"... Funny I thought the scripture said "seventy-two". (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif) QUOTE Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) is a plant in the family Fabaceae. It is commonly known as Maithray (Gujarati), Methi (Oriya, Bangla), Methi or Mithi (Hindi , Assamese, Nepali, Marathi मेथी, and Urdu ميتهي , from the Sanskrit मेथिका), Menthyada soppu (ಮೆಂತ್ಯ) (Kannada), Ventayam (வெந்தயம்) (Tamil), Menthulu(మెంతులు) (Telugu), Çemen (Turkish), Hilbeh (حلبة Arabic, חילבהHebrew), or ulluva (ഉലുവ Malayalam)، shambalîleh (شنبليله Persian). Fenugreek is used both as an herb (the leaves) and as a spice (the seed). It is cultivated worldwide as a semi-arid crop. It is frequently used in curry. These definitely don't belong in the lead section, but that doesn't mean they don't belong somewhere. I don't know what else you may have said that was deleted, but the indefinite block seems harsh at first glance. |
| TungstenCarbide |
Sat 14th March 2009, 5:31pm
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#63
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Allegedly shot down by stray Ukrainian missile ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Regulars Posts: 1,405 Joined: Sat 14th Mar 2009, 6:12am Member No.: 10,787 WP user page - talk check - contribs |
I don't know what else you may have said that was deleted, but the indefinite block seems harsh at first glance. I called Georgewilliamherbert a marshmallow stuffed lard ass and told him to stay the hell off my talk page. Something about that guy rubbed me the wrong way, like his mind was too empty to actually do any editing, so he just wanders around dredging people through the sewage of his lectures. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif) PS. there was nothing on my user page offensive - they just deleted it out of spite. Is there an admin around who can undelete it please? This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sat 14th March 2009, 5:38pm |
| Noroton |
Sat 14th March 2009, 8:11pm
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#64
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Inactive Posts: 382 Joined: Fri 13th Mar 2009, 1:20am Member No.: 10,759 WP user page - talk check - contribs |
a marshmallow stuffed lard ass I'd never heard of this particular perversion before, and I have to thank TungstenCarbide for stuffing my brain with visions of ... well, you know. Questions to which I'm not sure I want answers but for some reason (and let's not explore that) feel compelled to ask: 1. How does one actually stuff a lard ass with marshmallows? (and if this has anything to do with it, really, I'd rather not know: http://www.marshmallowshooter.com/ ) 2. Why would one do this thing? 3. Would a lard ass stuffed with marshmallows be considered a lardier lard ass than a lard ass not stuffed with marshmallows? 4. Would a regular ass stuffed with marshmallows thereby become a lard ass? 5. Is it more or less comfortable to sit when your ass is stuffed with marshmallows than when it isn't, whether or not it's lardy or relatively lard-free? I mean, having your colon filled up is generally uncomfortable, but they're marshmallows, so they should be pretty soft, right? 6. Do they say "lard arse" in the UK, or is that just too many "r"s for an "r"-challenged dialect to take on when dealing with emotionally startling rarified perversions? (Actually, I find 19,800 "lard arse" ghits, so I guess that answers the question.) 7. Are marshmallows that are used for stuffing right out of the bag or are they toasted? 8. Are there health risks involved in stuffing ones ass with marshmallows? 9. How many bags of marshmallows does it take before a lard ass is considered stuffed? Would that be any more or less than a regular ass? 10. Was this ever done at Guantanamo? If so, did it result in authorities recovering actual actionable information preventing a terrorist attack on our homeland? 11. Should diabetics be careful about stuffing marshmallows up their asses? If so, are there gluten-free alternative marshmallows safe for gluteus maximi? 12. Does the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man have a marshmallow-stuffed lard ass? 13. Does this work with Peeps? After all, it's about that time of year ... |
| TungstenCarbide |
Sat 14th March 2009, 8:41pm
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#65
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Allegedly shot down by stray Ukrainian missile ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Regulars Posts: 1,405 Joined: Sat 14th Mar 2009, 6:12am Member No.: 10,787 WP user page - talk check - contribs |
a marshmallow stuffed lard ass I'd never heard of this particular perversion before, and I have to thank TungstenCarbide for stuffing my brain with visions of ... well, you know. Questions to which I'm not sure I want answers but for some reason (and let's not explore that) feel compelled to ask: 1. How does one actually stuff a lard ass with marshmallows? (and if this has anything to do with it, really, I'd rather not know: http://www.marshmallowshooter.com/ ) 2. Why would one do this thing? 3. Would a lard ass stuffed with marshmallows be considered a lardier lard ass than a lard ass not stuffed with marshmallows? 4. Would a regular ass stuffed with marshmallows thereby become a lard ass? 5. Is it more or less comfortable to sit when your ass is stuffed with marshmallows than when it isn't, whether or not it's lardy or relatively lard-free? I mean, having your colon filled up is generally uncomfortable, but they're marshmallows, so they should be pretty soft, right? 6. Do they say "lard arse" in the UK, or is that just too many "r"s for an "r"-challenged dialect to take on when dealing with emotionally startling rarified perversions? (Actually, I find 19,800 "lard arse" ghits, so I guess that answers the question.) 7. Are marshmallows that are used for stuffing right out of the bag or are they toasted? 8. Are there health risks involved in stuffing ones ass with marshmallows? 9. How many bags of marshmallows does it take before a lard ass is considered stuffed? Would that be any more or less than a regular ass? 10. Was this ever done at Guantanamo? If so, did it result in authorities recovering actual actionable information preventing a terrorist attack on our homeland? 11. Should diabetics be careful about stuffing marshmallows up their asses? If so, are there gluten-free alternative marshmallows safe for gluteus maximi? 12. Does the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man have a marshmallow-stuffed lard ass? 13. Does this work with Peeps? After all, it's about that time of year ... Well, Noroton, I came here for a serious discussion, unlike you. But to clarify where my choice of words came from, and maybe 'choice' is the wrong word since they just kinda rolled without thought; the marshmallow I think reflects a general poofiness, touchy-feely quality and lack of substance in his post. And the lard-ass refers to the general lack of valuable work from this administrator, who appears to just sit around subjecting people to his blather. Wikipedia obviously isn't the place for me, but for the love of god how hard is it to write clear and simple intros that draw a person into the article, instead headache inducing clusterfucks that chase them off? |
| Noroton |
Sun 15th March 2009, 12:49am
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#66
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Inactive Posts: 382 Joined: Fri 13th Mar 2009, 1:20am Member No.: 10,759 WP user page - talk check - contribs |
Well, Noroton, I came here for a serious discussion, unlike you. But to clarify where my choice of words came from, and maybe 'choice' is the wrong word since they just kinda rolled without thought; the marshmallow I think reflects a general poofiness, touchy-feely quality and lack of substance in his post. And the lard-ass refers to the general lack of valuable work from this administrator, who appears to just sit around subjecting people to his blather. I called Georgewilliamherbert a marshmallow stuffed lard ass and told him to stay the hell off my talk page. Something about that guy rubbed me the wrong way, like his mind was too empty to actually do any editing, so he just wanders around dredging people through the sewage of his lectures. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif) Wikipedia obviously isn't the place for me, but for the love of god how hard is it to write clear and simple intros that draw a person into the article, instead headache inducing clusterfucks that chase them off? For the record, I agree . We certainly don't need the Tamil word for fenugreek in a lead paragraph. It's the kind of thing you should be able to convince a lot of Wikipedians to support, I think. Sounds like you made it a lot harder to do that by hurling insults at Georgewilliamherbert and others. Personally, if I wielded the cudgel, I'd almost always give a warning to someone who'd done what you did. If any of the admins who had blocked me had simply warned me first, the blocks could have been avoided (in some cases, not about civility, I'd have argued the point). I think that's even in [[WP:BLOCK]] policy, but about one admin in a thousand actually warns first before swinging with the cudgel. (The warning isn't to inform people who don't know that bad behavior will get them blocked -- just about everyone knows that. The warning is useful to get the warnee to start thinking about where his attitude will get him.) Another thing I wouldn't do -- because it's completely useless, unhelpful, unconstructive, pretty damn stupid and very likely extremely malicious -- is leave a scolding message on the talk page of someone who's clearly angry and who's just been blocked. This should probably be spelled out somewhere in policy, and people who do it should themselves be treated to a vacation. Since Wikipedia makes decisions by consensus, you are required to suffer fools gladly if you want to get along or get something done. Did you want to get the entire encyclopedia to change this stupid pattern of junking up the leads with pedantic trivia, or did you just want to rail against it? It sounds to me like you could contribute a lot to Wikipedia if you stopped the insults, including the pouffy thing LessHorridVanU pointed out (if you didn't mean to insult gays by that, please say so -- EDIT: I see you did). Why not email one of the blocking admins and admit you were acting in a way that was completely useless, unhelpful, unconstructive and pretty damn stupid with regard to those insults. I'm pretty sure they'd let you back, if that's what you want. Of course, it works better if, after two weeks, you actually believe that you shouldn't be insulting people you might have to work with later. This morning I heard an interview on the radio with the Manhattan District Attorney, Morgenthau, who's 90 and retiring after decades in that job. He mentioned that one of the important ways that criminals reform is by realizing that they've been treated fairly by the system (obviously, I'm not calling you a criminal, but the analogy is obvious). Wikipedia does a really shitty job with that, including in this case, and as a result, Wikipedia shoots itself in the foot. If you do your part in correcting this, you could go back if you wanted to, assuming you want to go back. How's that for serious? This post has been edited by Noroton: Sun 15th March 2009, 12:55am |
| TungstenCarbide |
Sun 15th March 2009, 1:57am
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#67
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Allegedly shot down by stray Ukrainian missile ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Regulars Posts: 1,405 Joined: Sat 14th Mar 2009, 6:12am Member No.: 10,787 WP user page - talk check - contribs |
This morning I heard an interview on the radio with the Manhattan District Attorney, Morgenthau, who's 90 and retiring after decades in that job. He mentioned that one of the important ways that criminals reform is by realizing that they've been treated fairly by the system (obviously, I'm not calling you a criminal, but the analogy is obvious). Wikipedia does a really shitty job with that, including in this case, and as a result, Wikipedia shoots itself in the foot. If you do your part in correcting this, you could go back if you wanted to, assuming you want to go back. How's that for serious? Don't get me wrong, I'm not railing at the injustice of how I was treated. I'm railing at piss poor idiotic introductions that a 10yr old could improve on. If you go read my reply to Marshmallow George you'll see what I mean. Those idiots are placing a tortured, twisted idea of 'civility' above article quality. Sometimes people need a good swift boot up the ass to try harder. Take that away and you get a mediocre social club. I don't think I've been treated unfairly - wikipedia admins can make whatever rules they want and kick me out if I don't abide. I asked the guy who owns the article [[Kyrgyzstan]] where to go broach this issue and he couldn't answer. It took me like an hour to find the right style page to go to. Not that it did any good. But in doing so, and in hind sight, it became obvious that there are throngs of marshmallow georges that never make that kind of effort to improve quality - it's hard work. This objection comes up from time to time on the talk page of the wikipedia manual of style page dealing with lead sections. The initial drive for including information in brackets after the initial subject mention came from from looking at dictionary practice, where of course there are no leads. So different parts of the MOS came to be maintained by different groups each with regard to their particular piece of name info in the opening sentence. A particular article as Wikipedia is now may have English, Arabic, French, and Berber. Another may have English, simplified Chinese, traditional Chinese, pinyin and Wade-Giles. In theory, I guess all could have etymology and IPA guides beside each. Some encyclopedias use no parenthetical information at all after the initial mention of the subject, some use IPA, yet some others use wade-giles, some use footnotes, and so on, but finding an encyclopedia which uses more than two instances of parenthetical information is difficult. A footnote when these things are not brief is the obvious solution, though Jeandré du Toit dumped some stuff in a box here, having procured SlimVirgin's blessing on a MoS talk page. Back when I used to edit (and care), I put some looooong strings of info of this type I came across in footnotes, but they were all reverted pretty quickly. <snip> Good points. Wikipedia has all kinds of formatting tricks that could help. There have been more good ideas and discussion at this thread than my whole experience at wikipedia. Admins there seem to spend ten times the effort bludgeoning people with 'civility' than working quality problems. This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sun 15th March 2009, 1:58am |
| GlassBeadGame |
Sat 6th June 2009, 8:30pm
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#68
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Dharma Bum ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Contributors Posts: 7,919 Joined: Sat 17th Feb 2007, 12:55am From: My name it means nothing. My age it means less. The country I come from is called the Mid-West. Member No.: 981 |
This morning I heard an interview on the radio with the Manhattan District Attorney, Morgenthau, who's 90 and retiring after decades in that job. He mentioned that one of the important ways that criminals reform is by realizing that they've been treated fairly by the system (obviously, I'm not calling you a criminal, but the analogy is obvious). Wikipedia does a really shitty job with that, including in this case, and as a result, Wikipedia shoots itself in the foot. If you do your part in correcting this, you could go back if you wanted to, assuming you want to go back. How's that for serious? Don't get me wrong, I'm not railing at the injustice of how I was treated. I'm railing at piss poor idiotic introductions that a 10yr old could improve on. If you go read my reply to Marshmallow George you'll see what I mean. Those idiots are placing a tortured, twisted idea of 'civility' above article quality. Sometimes people need a good swift boot up the ass to try harder. Take that away and you get a mediocre social club. I don't think I've been treated unfairly - wikipedia admins can make whatever rules they want and kick me out if I don't abide. I asked the guy who owns the article [[Kyrgyzstan]] where to go broach this issue and he couldn't answer. It took me like an hour to find the right style page to go to. Not that it did any good. But in doing so, and in hind sight, it became obvious that there are throngs of marshmallow georges that never make that kind of effort to improve quality - it's hard work. This objection comes up from time to time on the talk page of the wikipedia manual of style page dealing with lead sections. The initial drive for including information in brackets after the initial subject mention came from from looking at dictionary practice, where of course there are no leads. So different parts of the MOS came to be maintained by different groups each with regard to their particular piece of name info in the opening sentence. A particular article as Wikipedia is now may have English, Arabic, French, and Berber. Another may have English, simplified Chinese, traditional Chinese, pinyin and Wade-Giles. In theory, I guess all could have etymology and IPA guides beside each. Some encyclopedias use no parenthetical information at all after the initial mention of the subject, some use IPA, yet some others use wade-giles, some use footnotes, and so on, but finding an encyclopedia which uses more than two instances of parenthetical information is difficult. A footnote when these things are not brief is the obvious solution, though Jeandré du Toit dumped some stuff in a box here, having procured SlimVirgin's blessing on a MoS talk page. Back when I used to edit (and care), I put some looooong strings of info of this type I came across in footnotes, but they were all reverted pretty quickly. <snip> Good points. Wikipedia has all kinds of formatting tricks that could help. There have been more good ideas and discussion at this thread than my whole experience at wikipedia. Admins there seem to spend ten times the effort bludgeoning people with 'civility' than working quality problems. I could care less about your civility or lack of it, but reducing WR to a discussion forum for a WP style manual is a complete travesty. BTW what the fuck is a WR Barnstar, Petey? Welcome new class of Wikipedian losers to the Review. |
TungstenCarbide Article introductions Sat 14th March 2009, 3:51pm
Eva Destruction The "notes on your user page" were – i... Sat 14th March 2009, 4:02pm
TungstenCarbide
The "notes on your user page" were – ... Sat 14th March 2009, 4:08pm

LaraLove
I don't know what else you may have said tha... Sat 14th March 2009, 5:46pm

CharlotteWebb
I called Georgewilliamherbert a marshmallow stuff... Sat 14th March 2009, 5:49pm

One
13. Does this work with Peeps? After all, it... Sat 14th March 2009, 8:36pm

CharlotteWebb
(and if this has anything to do with it, really, ... Sat 14th March 2009, 8:39pm

LessHorrid vanU
[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='161351' date... Sat 14th March 2009, 9:23pm


TungstenCarbide Ah, "poofiness"... An adjective by which... Sun 15th March 2009, 12:29am


It's the blimp, Frank
[quote name='LessHorrid vanU' post='161417' date=... Mon 16th March 2009, 4:23pm

TungstenCarbide I could care less about your civility or lack of i... Sat 6th June 2009, 8:42pm

GlassBeadGame
I could care less about your civility or lack of ... Sat 6th June 2009, 8:49pm

TungstenCarbide You are an idiot with an internet addiction. Nobod... Sat 6th June 2009, 8:57pm

GlassBeadGame
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='176995' date='S... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:09pm


TungstenCarbide Does that sound like I'm tying to moderate any... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:18pm


GlassBeadGame
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='177001' date='S... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:20pm


zvook I'm not sure bumping a three month old thread ... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:27pm



GlassBeadGame
I'm not sure bumping a three month old thread... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:34pm



Obesity
I'm just horrified that PD, who has done such... Sun 7th June 2009, 2:08am




TungstenCarbide
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='177011' date='S... Sun 7th June 2009, 5:40pm




Obesity
There are a lot of posts on this site I don't... Sun 7th June 2009, 6:21pm




TungstenCarbide
There are a lot of posts on this site I don... Sun 7th June 2009, 6:27pm




Obesity
[quote name='Obesity' post='177169' date='Sun 7th... Sun 7th June 2009, 6:32pm




TungstenCarbide
[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='177171' date=... Sun 7th June 2009, 6:34pm




EricBarbour Personal problem?????? GBG's "problem... Sun 7th June 2009, 9:38pm



EricBarbour I'm just horrified that PD, who has done such ... Sun 7th June 2009, 4:50am



Peter Damian
I'm just horrified that PD, who has done such... Sun 7th June 2009, 10:21am



GlassBeadGame
I'm just horrified that PD, who has done suc... Sun 7th June 2009, 2:24pm



Somey Oh. And I thought you knew the difference. So why ... Sun 7th June 2009, 3:31pm



Peter Damian
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='177011' date='... Sun 7th June 2009, 3:43pm



Somey Article introductions are irrelevant, it's jus... Sun 7th June 2009, 4:04pm



Peter Damian
So let's try to get back on-topic - would you... Sun 7th June 2009, 4:37pm




Somey ...Good contributors in my experience tend to reco... Sun 7th June 2009, 4:54pm



Milton Roe
Article introductions are irrelevant, it's ju... Sun 7th June 2009, 6:46pm



Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Somey' post='177132' date='Sun 7th J... Sun 7th June 2009, 9:18pm


TungstenCarbide
Hmm, I'm a wikipedian? Sorry, your pathetic a... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:28pm


Random832 Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the w... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:55pm


TungstenCarbide It will inspire you to... let the door hit on the ... Sat 6th June 2009, 11:45pm


CharlotteWebb
It will inspire you to... let the door hit on the... Sun 7th June 2009, 12:26am

Somey Is that the official WR doctrine as delivered by a... Sat 6th June 2009, 9:52pm
Malleus
[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='161338' date=... Sat 14th March 2009, 5:54pm
CharlotteWebb
What is so magical about the first sentence of ar... Sat 14th March 2009, 7:53pm
EricBarbour Tungsten: as you will quickly find by looking at t... Sun 15th March 2009, 12:52am
Kato
Tungsten: as you will quickly find by looking at ... Sun 15th March 2009, 1:00am
EricBarbour Georgewilliamherbert is a disastrous figure on Wik... Mon 16th March 2009, 8:06am
zvook This objection comes up from time to time on the t... Sun 15th March 2009, 1:43am
Milton Roe
This objection comes up from time to time on the ... Sun 15th March 2009, 2:00am
zvook
There have been more good ideas and discussion at... Mon 16th March 2009, 1:42pm

TungstenCarbide <snip>
You may think it's simply incomp... Mon 16th March 2009, 3:40pm
zvook
No, the answer is: it depends. If you have WIKIPO... Mon 16th March 2009, 2:11pm
Emperor Complicated intros are just the way they happen to... Mon 16th March 2009, 4:20pm
TungstenCarbide
Complicated intros are just the way they happen t... Mon 16th March 2009, 5:07pm
Milton Roe
Like an old dog, barking at the mailman is signif... Mon 16th March 2009, 7:08pm
EricBarbour :rolleyes: Mon 16th March 2009, 8:46pm
Jon Awbrey [color=#b00bee][font=fixedsys][size=7]Fancruft*
... Sun 7th June 2009, 12:45am
UseOnceAndDestroy
[font=fixedsys][size=7]Fancruft*
It is, and a sub... Sun 7th June 2009, 10:04am
Jon Awbrey Deck Chairs on The Titanic —
Paint them a rainb... Sun 7th June 2009, 3:16am
Malleus
Deck Chairs on The Titanic —
Paint them differ... Sun 7th June 2009, 3:22am
Jon Awbrey
… or perhaps they're just bored with your i... Sun 7th June 2009, 3:36am
Juliancolton
[quote name='Jon Awbrey' post='177049' date='Sun ... Sun 7th June 2009, 5:40am![]() ![]() |
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