Jayjg MIA Options

[Sarcasticidealist]

As I understand it, however, there remains a distinct list containing both current and former Arbcom members. True?

Yes, along with checkusers and oversighters.

[Lar]

As I understand it, however, there remains a distinct list containing both current and former Arbcom members. True?

Yes, along with checkusers and oversighters.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AC#functionaries-en (who is on it is public knowledge)

ObDisclaimer - that includes me.

[GlassBeadGame]

While there is no specific evidence that Jayjg is paid to edit Wikipedia, he is a different sort of beast than those we normally deal with. He is much, much more interested in maintaining his long-term ability to influence his articles of interest than he is in the other dramas of the community.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying his a voice of an Israeli organization, possibly even a government one?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence of any kind regarding Jayjg, his identity, or his affiliations. My comment should be read thusly: given a longitudinal study of his editing habits, his involvement in wiki-politics, his on-wiki associates, and other incidental evidence, Jayjg presents a profile very different from (e.g.) SlimVirgin, JzG, Ryulong, MONGO, or other assorted wiki-obsessives. His skill in manipulating people without crossing clear lines, his studied use of threats, his willingness and ability to act through others (both admin and regular editors), his astonishing skill at gaming the system, and -- perhaps most importantly -- his willingness to simply disappear from the conversation for long periods, would seem to indicate someone of a more professional nature than most wiki editors (who seem to have escaped from the Island of Misfit Toys or something).

But just so no one accuses me of slinging any slurs: I am not accusing Jayjg of being an "agent" of any organization. Whether or not he acts like one is a matter for well-informed individuals to conclude on their own.

I agree with this assessment from this high level of gamesmanship subject to two significant lapses. First, his completely amateurish commitment to the "Allegations of Apartheid"series of articles and second, his miscalculation of the reaction his attack on CharlotteWeb would bring followed by his SlimVirgin like defense on wikien-l .

[Son of a Yeti]

But just so no one accuses me of slinging any slurs: I am not accusing Jayjg of being an "agent" of any organization. Whether or not he acts like one is a matter for well-informed individuals to conclude on their own.

I'm not accusing you of anything. You simply changed my perception of Jayjg.

However I cannot promise I will not watch his future input for any signs of this. I'm not anti-Israeli but I prefer when governments are lobbied by private persons, not the other way.

[trenton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Messiani...ioning_the_lead

I'm wondering about trying to bring some neutrality to the Messianic Judaism article at this point

I wonder who will watch my back?

well, whoever volunteers is sure to become a bureaucrat and checkuser too just like the last guy

This post has been edited by trenton: Sat 25th April 2009, 6:15pm

[Heat]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

[Viridae]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Wow, thats going to be interesting. Lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth on the workshop, but this arbcom seems to be far harder on repeat offenders than the previous incarnation (see also jpgordon's particular brand of wailing and gnashing of teeth)

[EricBarbour]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Amazing. That is one hard-assed Russian.
I must assume that Jay is frantically emailing all and sundry, begging for help. Perhaps he will finally pester Jimbo for special treatment one time too many, and (hey presto) the vote will be unanimous.

[Cla68]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Amazing. That is one hard-assed Russian.
I must assume that Jay is frantically emailing all and sundry, begging for help. Perhaps he will finally pester Jimbo for special treatment one time too many, and (hey presto) the vote will be unanimous.

Jayjg is toast. The question now is, how does Wikipedia keep another Jayjg from happening again? SV\HFO, do you have an opinion on the issue?

This post has been edited by Cla68: Sun 3rd May 2009, 10:06am

[JohnA]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Amazing. That is one hard-assed Russian.
I must assume that Jay is frantically emailing all and sundry, begging for help. Perhaps he will finally pester Jimbo for special treatment one time too many, and (hey presto) the vote will be unanimous.

Jayjg is toast. The question now is, how does Wikipedia keep another Jayjg from happening again? SV\HFO, do you have an opinion on the issue?

Why would you want SV to comment? She's definitely part of the problem and not the solution.

[Son of a Yeti]

Jayjg is toast.

I fully agree. Especially if the account was simply an emanation of some Israeli sponsored group, as I suspected (on a hunch only, with no evidence).

Why would they need an account which is so obviously biased? They can always create several new ones.

This post has been edited by Son of a Yeti: Sun 3rd May 2009, 8:05pm

[Cla68]

Jayjg is toast.

I fully agree. Especially if the account was simply an emanation of some Israeli sponsored group, as I suspected (on a hunch only, with no evidence).

Why would they need an account which is so obvious as biased? They can always create several new ones.

If Jayjg is an Israeli-sponsored account, then that nation is truly a lost cause.

[Jon Awbrey]

Why would you want SV to comment? She's definitely part of the problem and not the solution.

Hence the Humour …

Ja Ja

[KimvdLinde]

It is not yet sure all the arbitrators will follow suit. I can see these fail with one vote.

[Jon Awbrey]

Jayjg hasn't edited since April 8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayjg. Now while he stopped editing around the beginning of Passover he hasn't resumed editing since its end.

Has Jayjg decided to run to ground until the West Bank Arbcomm case is over (Jay has a habit of disappearing when he's under ArbComm scrutiny).

I'm guessing it's not so much Missing In Action as Knitting In Progress.

Ja Ja

[Saltimbanco]

What fun!

Kiril's resolutions may indeed yet fall short, but I think there is a sea-change going on here.

Jayjg is almost certainly employed by an organization dedicated to promoting and defending Israel, but I think it is likely that he has successfully completed his assignment with regard to Wikipedia: Israel's legitimate fear, early on in the history of Wikipedia, was that it would become a broadly accepted and anti-Israeli information source. This could be countered in either of two ways: first, by making it pro-Israeli rather than anti-Israeli; or second, by keeping Wikipedia from becoming a broadly accepted information source. And I think clause two has been accomplished.

There will no doubt be ongoing pro-Israeli propaganda efforts at Wikipedia, but I think that the bigger guns have decided that there are more pressing issues at this point. Within a few weeks Jayjg will be working on setting a rationale by which Americans might think that an Israeli attack on Iran is a good thing or arguing that Israel's foreign minister isn't really a violent racist in spite of him being a violent racist. Or any number of other initiatives.

It's too bad Wikipedia's credibility was essentially allowed to collapse before the Jayjg problem, which has been obvious for several years, was addressed. In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg. And he's gotten what he deserves for it!

[EricBarbour]

Jayjg is almost certainly employed by an organization dedicated to promoting and defending Israel, but I think it is likely that he has successfully completed his assignment with regard to Wikipedia: Israel's legitimate fear, early on in the history of Wikipedia, was that it would become a broadly accepted and anti-Israeli information source. This could be countered in either of two ways: first, by making it pro-Israeli rather than anti-Israeli; or second, by keeping Wikipedia from becoming a broadly accepted information source. And I think clause two has been accomplished.

Thing is, they did a terrible job of this. It took years, and has resulted in considerable embarrassment for Zionist groups such as CAMERA, simply by being suspected of supporting Jay and Co. whether such support was real or not.

If I had to do this, I would have just paid some starving Indian or Pakistani students to run proxy servers with scripts to auto-vandalize Wikipedia articles. Probably would have been cheaper and quicker. In all likelihood, Jay and his little butt-buddies decided to whitewash Israel all by themselves, then found out later that someone would support them.....they still act like amateurs!

In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg.

This has been suspected for a looong time.

how does Wikipedia keep another Jayjg from happening again?

Depends on the Arbcom. If the kosher boys figure out how to get a couple people onto Arbcom, they might have a chance. But their reputation is in tatters, and the Gaza attacks in January have done immeasurable harm to Israel's reputation. The usual "you're an antisemite, you're a Holocaust denier" crap is not very effective anymore*. So it would be a superhuman job.

Wanna make sure it doesn't happen again?
Encourage Arabs to edit en-wiki.

*(Except when used against cowardly Washington politicians...)

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Sun 3rd May 2009, 11:36pm

[Heat]

Depends on the Arbcom. If the kosher boys figure out how to get a couple people onto Arbcom, they might have a chance. But their reputation is in tatters, and the Gaza attacks in January have done immeasurable harm to Israel's reputation. The usual "you're an antisemite, you're a Holocaust denier" crap is not very effective anymore. So it would be a superhuman job.

Wanna make sure it doesn't happen again?
Encourage Arabs to edit en-wiki.

I'm sorry, I do have to object to the use of phrases like "kosher boy". I'm not sure what you mean but if you're saying anyone who is Jewish (or even anyone who is a religious Jew who keeps kosher) shouldn't be on ArbComm then you're completely off base, particularly when you consider that the guy writing Jayjg's sentence is a "kosher boy" named Kirill Lokshin.

[EricBarbour]

I'm sorry, I do have to object to the use of phrases like "kosher boy". I'm not sure what you mean but if you're saying anyone who is Jewish (or even anyone who is a religious Jew who keeps kosher) shouldn't be on ArbComm then you're completely off base, particularly when you consider that the guy writing Jayjg's sentence is a "kosher boy" named Kirill Lokshin.

You're misunderstanding me. Jews ought to be welcome on Arbcom, along with everyone else -- as long as they're not the Jayjg variety of sociopathic liars.

There are Arab Wikipedians who would run a similar POV scam, if they had adequate support. Ever been to Saudi Arabia? I have. If you try to bring a map or book showing or talking about Israel into that country, the airport censors (of which they have many) will black out all mention of Israel with large black permanent markers. Along with unclad women and other things that conservative Muslims find horrifying. Imagine what a group of Saudis, supported by their government, would do to en-wiki, given half a chance.....

I suspect the only way to keep Jayjg scandals from happening again would be to have a balance of Arabs and Jews on Arbcom.

(Sometimes I wonder what's going on in the Arabic Wikipedia. Thanks to the magic of Google Translate, you can read their article about Israel. You be the judge.)

[Eva Destruction]

(Sometimes I wonder what's going on in the Arabic Wikipedia. Thanks to the magic of Google Translate, you can read their article about Israel. You be the judge.)

That actually doesn't look too bad to me, I have to say (albeit through the Google Translate filter). I suspect that the odd-looking "War of 1948 (the war of occupation)" title isn't POV-pushing, but just a recognition of the fact that this is the name a lot of Arabic-speakers will know it by.