Advisory Council on Project Development Options

[Cla68]

As I've said on Wikipedia, I think Slim is right in this case even if it's for the wrong reasons. I agree with everything Vassyana said in his original opposition to the proposal; because this looks like a return to the smoke-filled rooms of a couple of years ago, any good ideas this council comes up with are going to be tarred by the "it's come from the cabal" brush, but any bad ideas will get more credibility than they deserve by virtue of the "hotline to the top" arrangement.

Well, the council has promised on the forum to not conduct any "business" off-wiki. The council's page is there, and we've started to discuss things. We have no authority to implement anything that we discuss. It's up to others to take any good ideas we generate and run with them. We'll see how it goes.

This post has been edited by Cla68: Mon 13th July 2009, 2:15pm

[Sarcasticidealist]

Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia have any experience in running a company or a nonprofit organization?

I do. In my experience, companies and nonprofits have governance structures that involve the authority to make decisions, making them entirely unlike Wikipedia.

I also don't think that "point of order" means what you think it means.

[everyking]

As I've said on Wikipedia, I think Slim is right in this case even if it's for the wrong reasons. I agree with everything Vassyana said in his original opposition to the proposal; because this looks like a return to the smoke-filled rooms of a couple of years ago, any good ideas this council comes up with are going to be tarred by the "it's come from the cabal" brush, but any bad ideas will get more credibility than they deserve by virtue of the "hotline to the top" arrangement.

Well, the council has promised on the forum to not conduct any "business" off-wiki. The council's page is there, and we've started to discuss things. We have no authority to implement anything that we discuss. It's up to others to take any good ideas we generate and run with them. We'll see how it goes.

Surely the council is not going to just coolly proceed with business amidst the community outcry? The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?

[A Horse With No Name]

Go away, Ottava. I hate you.

Oh, but I like you a lot. Really. You fill up my senses like a night in the forest, like the mountains in springtime, like a walk in the rain, like a storm in the desert, like a sleepy blue...oh, hold on, the phone is ringing. Hello? Yes, this is A Horse with No Name. Who is this? The John Denver Estate? Oh, how funny, I was just...I owe you how much in royalties? Uh oh.

Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia have any experience in running a company or a nonprofit organization?

I do. In my experience, companies and nonprofits have governance structures that involve the authority to make decisions, making them entirely unlike Wikipedia.

Well, you are something of an anomaly. You are one of the few guys on Wikipedia who actually looks presentable. Most of the guys on Wikipedia look like they were created by Jim Henson.

I also don't think that "point of order" means what you think it means.

It doesn't matter, I am just throwing words around recklessly.

This post has been edited by A Horse With No Name: Mon 13th July 2009, 2:27pm

[Cla68]

As I've said on Wikipedia, I think Slim is right in this case even if it's for the wrong reasons. I agree with everything Vassyana said in his original opposition to the proposal; because this looks like a return to the smoke-filled rooms of a couple of years ago, any good ideas this council comes up with are going to be tarred by the "it's come from the cabal" brush, but any bad ideas will get more credibility than they deserve by virtue of the "hotline to the top" arrangement.

Well, the council has promised on the forum to not conduct any "business" off-wiki. The council's page is there, and we've started to discuss things. We have no authority to implement anything that we discuss. It's up to others to take any good ideas we generate and run with them. We'll see how it goes.

Surely the council is not going to just coolly proceed with business amidst the community outcry? The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?

Feel free to ignore us as we try to generate some ideas for improving things around the 'pedia. We have no formal authority to implement any of our ideas, so you have nothing to worry about if no one else likes what we come up with.

Also, I saw that you presented a good idea for some type of initiative along similar lines in the RfC. Please consider running with that idea, it may produce some good results. You won't know, though, unless you try.

This post has been edited by Cla68: Mon 13th July 2009, 2:39pm

[everyking]

As I've said on Wikipedia, I think Slim is right in this case even if it's for the wrong reasons. I agree with everything Vassyana said in his original opposition to the proposal; because this looks like a return to the smoke-filled rooms of a couple of years ago, any good ideas this council comes up with are going to be tarred by the "it's come from the cabal" brush, but any bad ideas will get more credibility than they deserve by virtue of the "hotline to the top" arrangement.

Well, the council has promised on the forum to not conduct any "business" off-wiki. The council's page is there, and we've started to discuss things. We have no authority to implement anything that we discuss. It's up to others to take any good ideas we generate and run with them. We'll see how it goes.

Surely the council is not going to just coolly proceed with business amidst the community outcry? The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?

Feel free to ignore us as we try to generate some ideas for improving things around the 'pedia. We have no formal authority to implement any of our ideas, so you have nothing to worry about if no one else likes what we come up with.

So you feel the community's opinion on this matter is irrelevant because the council is ostensibly powerless?

[GlassBeadGame]

Surely the council is not going to just coolly proceed with business amidst the community outcry? The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?

Yes, how can a small group of self appointed meddlers dare ignore a larger group of self appointed meddlers?

[Moulton]

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold.

It's become increasingly apparent to sober observers that Wikipedia desperately needs a functional governance structure.

It's also increasingly obvious to many observers that Wikipedia is too far gone to be able to right itself and devise a functional governance structure.

This latest abortive attempt to take a meaningful step in that direction has further undermined and eroded what little governance the site has by way of ArbCom.

[Kato]

These grapes, they are so sour, I wouldn't eat them even if you paid me to!

As sour as these grapes?

[Sarcasticidealist]

It's become increasingly apparent to sober observers that Wikipedia desperately needs a functional governance structure.

It's also increasingly obvious to many observers that Wikipedia is too far gone to be able to right itself and devise a functional governance structure.

This latest abortive attempt to take a meaningful step in that direction has further undermined and eroded what little governance the site has by way of ArbCom.

Geez, Moulton, I haven't been paying much attention to you for the past few months. Have you been making this much sense the whole time?

[Moulton]

I've said the same things many times before.

So I stopped for a while to wait for other people to become ready to read them again.

[thekohser]

The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?

So, is 63 to 26 an "unambigious" voice? I don't even think it's "unambiguous", either!

This post has been edited by thekohser: Mon 13th July 2009, 4:15pm

[trenton]

I find this little comment from King Jimbeau quite interesting. Whatever intentions arbcom may have had with this council, it's quite clear he saw it as an opportunity to co-opt his critics. Give them a meaningless title and surround them with sycophants to drown out their voices, and may them his "royal" subjects, directly working under his authority.

Also, isn't it contradictory that some of the same people who swore fealty to the king in the recent rfc are so against this council that has the blessings of the king?

[Moulton]

Yes. I think it's a good idea. It's an advisory body with no power, a more formal way to seek diverse input from a variety of sources. I think such a body should be composed of a fairly large number of people, including some who are generally regarded as difficult characters or agitants - those voices need to be heard, even if in the main their proposals would be voted down. I believe that a small working group, composed of diverse membership, could be quite useful to the ArbCom, to me, and to the community in general.--Jimbo Wales 01:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

A small working group, composed of a fairly large number of diverse people (including difficult characters and agitants)?!?

I recommend that those who really care read the carefully crafted, peer reviewed, academic studies of Wikipedia's legendary dysfunctionality.

[LaraLove]

Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia have any experience in running a company or a nonprofit organization? I have never seen such a tragically mismanaged entity as this site. I can understand that many of the people who rise to the top on Wikipedia are either kids who are still in school or slacker adults who are sneaking in edits when the boss isn't looking. But in the absence of genuine managers, we will always wind up with this kind of shit. The one reason Wikipedia is constantly imploding with tiresome drama like this is the thorough lack of individuals who have any hands-on experience in building and maintaining a working organization.

Jayjg is in his 40s and works "in management"

I know an admin who was assistant manger of a Foot Locker once....

I work in restaurant management. Does that count?

Surely the council is not going to just coolly proceed with business amidst the community outcry? The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?

I have no problem doing this. I think the whole controversy is ridiculous. People opposing a think-tank. It's just funny.

Shit needs to change. It's been pounded for years, but nothing has changed... not for the better anyway. People are complaining endlessly, throwing out straw mans (see Prodego here), and for what? Some people hate ArbCom and think their a bunch of incompetent morons. Well, check the list of members of the think-tank. Are we all AC supporters? Hell no!

Just a bunch of bad faith, sour grapes and typical whining. Nothing changes on this project because there is always a loud enough group to shut anything down. This situation is no exception. If we fold to the predictable mob, we're just back to being broken and without hope. Fuck that noise. At some point, the protesters have to be left to chanting and marching while whatever they oppose moves forward. Change isn't coming on its own. It has to be forced through.

What's funny is that this group can't even force anything through. We can only suggest changes for the community to approve. Will they approve them? Almost certainly not. See previous paragraph. But it's worth a try. And I'll be damned if I give up on what I think is a brilliant idea because people are bitter, crying sour grapes or bitching about what they don't understand.

[A Horse With No Name]

I work in restaurant management. Does that count?

Only if you're on the menu!

Horsey is happy! Horsey is happy!

[Sarcasticidealist]

For what it's worth, I don't believe that Arb Comm's goal with this was to co-opt its opposition. But it certainly has been very effective at doing so: seeing Giano, Cla68, Greg, Peter Damian, RDH (Ghost in the Machine), the Fat Man, and Rootology all arguing basically on the side as the establishment...well, it makes my head explode in a most agreeable fashion.

Of course, Arb Comm seems to have alienated even more people with this, but you know the saying: "you can't make an omelette without sending a good portion of the Wikipedia community into a tizzy."

[thekohser]

For what it's worth, I don't believe that Arb Comm's goal with this was to co-opt its opposition. But it certainly has been very effective at doing so: seeing Giano, Cla68, Greg, Peter Damian, RDH (Ghost in the Machine), the Fat Man, and Rootology all arguing basically on the side as the establishment...well, it makes my head explode in a most agreeable fashion.

Of course, Arb Comm seems to have alienated even more people with this, but you know the saying: "you can't make an omelette without sending a good portion of the Wikipedia community into a tizzy."

But, wait -- you don't know if I'm on a counter-mission to disrupt the efforts of the Advisory Council itself!!!

[Obesity]

Only if you're on the menu!

Horsey is happy! Horsey is happy!

You know, Ottava, in Venice they eat horses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maceller...ina_venezia.jpg

[LaraLove]

Only if you're on the menu!

Horsey is happy! Horsey is happy!

You know, Ottava, in Venice they eat horses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maceller...ina_venezia.jpg

You do know that the WR mods have determined it is highly unlikely these two are the same as they are in very different places geographically, right?