High School kid who pretends to be a cop up for CU?, ...and ArbCom asked him to stump??? Options

[the fieryangel]

The good sire Tarantino, who is currently away, has apparently discovered a very interesting situation involving Tiptoety (T-C-L-K-R-D) who has been asked by Arbcom to stand for the Check User elections. Since he is a clerk at Wikipedia Sockpuppet investigations, this might seem like a reasonable nomination. However it would seem that Mr. Tiptoety has a rather...how shall we say?....strong interest in law enforcement in general, sometimes to the point of pretending to be a police officer, even though he appears to be in High school (or at least, was at the time of his adminstration nom.):

# Strong support Seen this user around many times while doing vandalism reverts. I would like to see a police officer be an admin on Wikipedia. NHRHS2010 talk 10:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment I've always been curious, since it appears the user is still in high school (I could be wrong about that), in what capacity he serves as a police officer (this is per the userbox on his user page). Tiptoety, could you clarify that? Katr67 11:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment More than that, it would appear that this user is also an emergency responder - seems bizzare to be both, and still in high school (by the looks of things). Having said that, I would certainly like to hear why NHRHS2010 thinks that we need a police officer as an admin on Wikipedia. A police officer, in my opinion, won't necessarily make any better an admin than (for want of a better expression) a normal person. TheIslander 13:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: If either of you have any evidence or proof that he is, indeed, a high school student, hadn't you best provide it here rather than simply making it seem as though Tiptoety is fabricating his identity? Otherwise it would seem you're derailing this RFA with non-issues that could sway people in their support or dissent. Thank you. Jeffpw 13:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Whilst I totally agree with Jeffpw that this does not seem to be helpful in terms of this RfA, it is hard to reconcile this diff [1] with the assertions of being a law enforcement officer. Normally the police don't get grounded by their parents ...... Pedro : Chat 13:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment Quite right, Jeffpw, I should have cited what Pedro just has. Appologies. TheIslander 14:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I admit that dif is disconcerting. That said, it could have been a joke. Until Tiptoety is here to answer for himself, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he was being playful when he put that on his page. Naturally, if it turns out he has misrepresented who he is, I will withdraw my support. Not for his age (I know other teen admins here who do a great job), but for the misrepresentation. Jeffpw 14:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, i am a student in a high school, but also serve as an employee of the Police Bureau as a Law Enforcement Cadet. I looked for a userbox that would state that but was un-able to find, so i used the next best thing. A police cadet does the same things as a police offices, except they are under 21 which means no gun, and can not operate and emergency vehicle with lights and sirens. Take a look here: [2]. Cheers! Tiptoety 14:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that up, Tiptoety. I was sure there must be some logical explanation for that. You seemed to have too strong an ethical code to have lied to the community. If you need help making a police cadet userbox, hit me up. It goes without saying you have my continued support for this nomination. Jeffpw 14:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment Yes, thank you Tiptoety for clearing that up. I figured it was something like that, judging by your interest in search and rescue. I in no way meant to imply that being in high school is a reason to oppose, nor was I saying you attempted to misrepresent yourself on purpose. It is bothersome to know, however, you don't know enough about wikicoding to perhaps "subst" the userbox and then change the text to more appropriately reflect your status. Katr67 15:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment Echoed - thanks for clearing that up, Tiptoety. Having said that, I still wonder about the Emergency Responder box... TheIslander 16:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Response - Thank you to everyone who understood the situation! I am glad that is cleared up, and have fixed the userbox issue on my userpage. On the topic of the first responder box, I am indeed a first responder (it stems from my work with Search and Rescue). Cheers! Tiptoety 18:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

In case anyone's in any doubt, Tiptoey has always been clear on this and isn't trying to mislead anyone - see this conversation for example. — iridescent 19:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Tiptoey I'm concerned by this "A police cadet does the same things as a police offices" which I highly doubt. Without going through the DPSST I doubt you can arrest anyone as a cadet (other than citizens arrest) or issue citations. Is this correct? Aboutmovies 19:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this really relevant anymore to this RfA? It's been cleared up that he wasn't intentionally misleading anyone, if you wish to argue what a police cadet can and can not do, wouldn't it be better to use email, or a talk page instead? KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 23:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No it has not been cleared up. This user has a history of misrepresentation (I don’t care if its intentional or not) including where in the oppose section someone pointed out this user did this which is far more troubling than the userbox issue. But Tiptoey says it was a misunderstanding, but says they are basically a cop minus a gun. I don’t think that’s true. Simply put, Tiptoey made a mistake, now he just needs own up to it completely. It’s the same thing as the copyvio issue. He’s trying to wriggle around it and make it seem not so bad, which is not owning up to the problem. Own up to the problem, reform, and come back to RFA in a few months. And I’m not sure why you think this was resolved. The only action in this thread of the RFA contributed by Tiptoey since their comment I quoted, is that he removed the user box, that doesn’t address the other claim of being a police officer made by this RFA candidate, which seems to continue when you make comments about cadets being cops minus a gun. Aboutmovies 00:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

How is this relevant to this RfA? That is what I am asking. How is the difference between being a cadet and an actual police officer relevant to this RfA? KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 00:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It's (possibly weakly) relevant 'cause it shows trust issues. There was confusion as to how a high school person could be a Police Officer, and Tiptoety cleared that up. However, since that things have surfaced where Tiptoety has claimed to be a Police Officer, yet he states here that he is not. There are definite honesty issues here, which is why this is being discussed. TheIslander 01:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It is relevant because as many people have pointed out, can Tiptoey be trusted with the tools.?To analyze this you start with the editors trustworthiness. The above issues demonstrate their are issues with that trustworthiness. Note, its not that there is from a WikiPedia editing difference, anything relevant to cop vs. cadet. It has to do with Tiptoey's response to this issue of misrepresenting himself as a police officer, and then when called on it trying to mitigate it by saying, well I'm a cadet so the only difference is I don't have a gun so really its no big deal. Yes, it is a big deal. I don't know about you but I don't go around WikiPedia telling people/implying to others that I'm a lawyer, when really I'm a law student. First it's border line illegal (impersonating a law enforcement officer is usually illegal), and second what good does it do for the project? Look, we all make mistakes, but if you want to be an admin you better own up to those mistakes, whether that be copyvio issues or saying you are a cop when you are not. Notice below the person who added the info about the claim of being a cop is apparently a law enforcement person, so I'll take their word that their is serious issue and difference with cadet v. cop. Aboutmovies 05:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Then the response to this issue has been (at least to me) more of a trying to avoid responsibility That raises issues of trust, and that is obviously related to being an admin.

Ummm, I still don't get it, maybe it's how we are interpreting this section of the discussion, but Tiptoety states "I looked for a userbox that would state that but was un-able to find, so i used the next best thing." Also in this conversation he states that he is a cadet. So he couldn't find the correct userbox, that makes him untrustworthy? He made a mistake with adding content that was a copyvio. Mistakes happen, people are human. I dunno, this is just my 2 cents, but it seems like your consistent issue about this is very overbearing. He's made some mistakes, if you choose to oppose because of them that is your prerogative. But you seem to be making a big deal over the comment "A police cadet does the same things as a police offices, except they are under 21 which means no gun." What does that have to do with this RfA? I just don't get it. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 06:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether it's relevant to this RFA or not, but in terms of the link above where Tiptoety says "I am a police officer" -- Tiptoety, please don't do that anymore. It's well-intentioned, but misleading. I don't think it reflects on your honesty or anything like that (particularly since you're kinda like a police officer), but it's a bad idea for a variety of reasons. That said, I haven't had the pleasure of meeting the candidate on here, so I'm not expressing any opinion of the RFA (and from all accounts he seems like a good guy). --TheOtherBob 18:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

No you don't seem to get it, its not about the userbox, its about his responses after the userbox part was "fixed" if you will. Note, again, there are two instances where it appears Tiptoey has represented he is a cop, the userbox, and far more troubling the Admin noticboard incident. Those are both mistakes, and the problem I have is Tiptoey's response to the community's concerns about the userbox, and more importantly the second incident. I asked a simple question, you have decided that you wanted to say its not relevant, all I want is a response from the candidate. Now if you really want to analyze the userbox, its not that he couldn't find the right userbox, its how he responded to the concern, oh its no big deal since a cadet is really just a cop without a gun. Well a private citizen is really just a cop without the authority, but if I misrepresent that I am a cop when I am not, then I get a free ticket to jail. So the problem I have is that Tiptoey was trying to downplay these misrepresentations, instead of owning up to the mistakes. Changing the userbox is the first step, but this comes across as very insincere when you try to downplay the problem. Aboutmovies 21:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Aboutmovies's comment was below mine, but I'm pretty sure it responds to the one above mine. To be clear, I don't hold any opinion here other than that Tiptoety shouldn't claim to be a police officer until he is one. --TheOtherBob 21:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

From IP information gleaned from Wikipedia Watch and Sam Spade, which I won't go into here, it would appear that Tiptoety has a history of making claims about being a law enforcement officer on other sites.

Now, does Wikipedia really want a younger kid who has obviously has a law enforcement fetish to handle this type of serious information? I see red lights going off all over the place here and this person seems to me to be the very last person who should have access to CU tools on the English Wikipedia.

[A Horse With No Name]

I have never heard of a U.S. police department where a cadet has the same responsibilities of an academy-trained police officer, as per Tiptoey's tiptoeing.

He forgot to mention one key difference in his case: cadets cannot make arrests. A cadet, as per the Portland PD web site, is basically a glorified public security guard -- they are not involved in any serious criminal investigation or crime scene situations, but they can do benign stuff that any paid security guard can do.

I am really surprised that absolutely no one caught his lies when he was running for RfA.

This post has been edited by A Horse With No Name: Sun 26th July 2009, 9:18pm

[Kelly Martin]

I have never heard of a U.S. police department where a cadet has the same responsibilities of an academy-trained police officer, as per Tiptoety's tiptoeing. If he was an auxiliary officer or a reserve officer, I could understand that statement. But that also requires extensive training, and there is a huge difference between being a trained officer and a cadet.

Not only that, but cadets (and also reserve auxiliaries and especially junior cadets) are told again and again that they are not sworn officers and that they are not empowered with the full powers, duties, and responsibilities as sworn officers, and that they are not to act as if they have such status, or present themselves as such to others, if they ever want to actually achieve the status of sworn officer.

He forgot to mention one key difference in his case: cadets cannot make arrests. A cadet, as per the Portland PD web site, is basically a glorified public security guard -- they are not involved in any serious criminal investigation or crime scene situations, but they can do benign stuff that any paid security guard can do.

Yup. A cadet has exactly the same power to effect an arrest as any citizen. They're not sworn officers. If they pretend to act as if they are sworn officers, they commit the offense of "impersonating a police officer", for which they can be arrested, which would seriously harm their chances of actually becoming a police officer.

I think one of the purposes of these programs is to identify people unfit to serve as police officers so they can be blackballed early on before the state spends a bunch of money training them.

[A Horse With No Name]

I have never heard of a U.S. police department where a cadet has the same responsibilities of an academy-trained police officer, as per Tiptoety's tiptoeing. If he was an auxiliary officer or a reserve officer, I could understand that statement. But that also requires extensive training, and there is a huge difference between being a trained officer and a cadet.

Not only that, but cadets (and also reserve auxiliaries and especially junior cadets) are told again and again that they are not sworn officers and that they are not empowered with the full powers, duties, and responsibilities as sworn officers, and that they are not to act as if they have such status, or present themselves as such to others, if they ever want to actually achieve the status of sworn officer.

He forgot to mention one key difference in his case: cadets cannot make arrests. A cadet, as per the Portland PD web site, is basically a glorified public security guard -- they are not involved in any serious criminal investigation or crime scene situations, but they can do benign stuff that any paid security guard can do.

Yup. A cadet has exactly the same power to effect an arrest as any citizen. They're not sworn officers. If they pretend to act as if they are sworn officers, they commit the offense of "impersonating a police officer", for which they can be arrested, which would seriously harm their chances of actually becoming a police officer.

I think one of the purposes of these programs is to identify people unfit to serve as police officers so they can be blackballed early on before the state spends a bunch of money training them.

I think this character is unfit for any job that requires decision making and carrying the burden of responsibility. Wikipedia is chicken dip, in the ultimate scheme of things, but I am genuinely concerned that someone of this personality would possibly be in a position that enables him to carry firearms and deprive people of their liberty.

Tiptoey doesn't get my votes.

[Kelly Martin]

I think this character is unfit for any job that requires decision making and carrying the burden of responsibility. Wikipedia is chicken dip, in the ultimate scheme of things, but I am genuinely concerned that someone of this personality would possibly be in a position that enables him to carry firearms and deprive people of their liberty.

You never know, he might grow into it. Very few people survive their twenties without changing somewhat.

I bet him and Dan Rosenthal get along like gangbusters.

[A Horse With No Name]

I think this character is unfit for any job that requires decision making and carrying the burden of responsibility. Wikipedia is chicken dip, in the ultimate scheme of things, but I am genuinely concerned that someone of this personality would possibly be in a position that enables him to carry firearms and deprive people of their liberty.

You never know, he might grow into it. Very few people survive their twenties without changing somewhat.

I bet him and Dan Rosenthal get along like gangbusters.

I strongly doubt it. Once a liar, always a liar.

Dan Rosenthal is a f**king idiot. I feel terrible for the people who rely on him for legal assistance.

[Nerd]

Dan Rosenthal is a f**king idiot. I feel terrible for the people who rely on him for legal assistance.

People do? Goodness gracious me.