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> JzG, same old same old, Repeats old claims
Abd
post Mon 14th September 2009, 3:12pm
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Removes convenience copy of paper

JzG made this copyright argument over and over before, and edit warred over inclusion of sources from lenr-canr.org. The whole issue was debated ad nauseum at the WP whitelist page, and the link he removed was whitelisted specifically for usage, on consideration of the copyright arguments. There is no legal risk whatever to Wikipedia for this link, because lenr-canr.org does claim permission, and is not obligated to provide us with specific evidence for every one of their thousands of pages.

Lenr-canr.org is highly visible in the field, and if the publisher doesn't want the page offered, it can request it be taken down, and it's highly likely that they would do so. Wikipedia should not link to known copyright violations, but JzG's claim does not establish that, and he's just repeating the old arguments he made before, that were rejected; he thinks he can get away with it now that I'm blocked. Maybe he will, but I rather doubt it.

JzG also nominated for deletion my "Cabal" evidence page for RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley. Watch him, folks, he'll do what he thinks he can get away with, and more.
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Kelly Martin
post Wed 23rd September 2009, 9:51pm
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Being wrong doesn't make a theory "pseudoscientific". What makes it pseudoscientific is refusing to allow the theory to be tested, refusing to accept or consider evidence that suggests that the theory is incorrect, or stating the theory in such a way that no evidence could possibly be produced so as to falsify the claims made by the theory.

The Einstein-Cartan-Evans theory is a scientific theory that happens to be wrong: it was proposed, examined, and rejected, all in accordance with the scientific method. Unless its proponents continue to rail on about how it must be true despite the objections, it is erroneous to call it "pseudoscience". It should be tagged instead as a "rejected scientific theory", along with phlogiston and the geocentric model of the solar system.
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Abd
post Wed 23rd September 2009, 11:59pm
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warning: long.

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 23rd September 2009, 5:51pm) *
Being wrong doesn't make a theory "pseudoscientific". What makes it pseudoscientific is refusing to allow the theory to be tested, refusing to accept or consider evidence that suggests that the theory is incorrect, or stating the theory in such a way that no evidence could possibly be produced so as to falsify the claims made by the theory.
Yes. There is a phenomenon which is a mirror of pseudoscience, perhaps the best name I've seen for it is pseudoskepticism. Pseudoskepticism refuses to consider evidence in favor of a theory, because the theory "has been discredited," i.e., rejects fact ("evidence" is fact, when properly framed) due to rejection of theory that the fact might imply.

What became more and more clear to me as I read the literature on cold fusion was that this is what happened. Defects in Fleischmann's research in narrow areas were exaggerated and extended to cover and reject by association his entire work; replications were ignored with a host of excuses and thus it was proclaimed that the work hadn't been replicated. The editor of Science proclaimed cold fusion "dead." He's now dead, and the field he tried to bury isn't. Since when did a journal editor gain the right to declare an entire field of research, with as many as hundreds of active researchers at the time, "dead"?

In 1990, apparently, because it seemed he got away with it, for years. It's truly a great story, showing how far the "consensus" can stray from being solidly grounded in experiment and the scientific method.

Fact: many research groups have reported unexpected heat, way above experimental error margins, nuclear radiation, helium correlated with the heat, and elemental transformations in the palladium deuteride system (and in some related condensed matter systems). That is an uncontestable fact, and each element in this fact can be specified. Key word is "reported." Does that mean that cold fusion is taking place? Well, that's a theory, an interpretation, not a fact. What we would hope is that those who issue opinions on theories would know the facts!

Better question, is the reported excess heat real? What we can say at this point is that it is unexplained, except through theories that involve nuclear reactions, and none of those theories are fully satisfactory. Some have made predictions that panned out, such as Preparata's prediction that helium would be the predominant ash (and which then predicts that the helium would correlate with the heat, as it does as reviewed in p.r. secondary source). Given the variety of approaches toward measuring the heat, the explanatory theory of simple measurement error has become untenable. While there has certainly been some sloppy work, much of the work in measuring the heat has been by experts in such measurements, and they have used many different methods.

So, then, is there some other explanation besides nuclear reactions? Hydrino theory does provide two possible routes to explain the energy: one would be the formation of hydrinos, expected to be, through Mills' theory, highly exothermic; it's a non-nuclear explanation. However, in theory, again, hydrinos would be like muons, because of the reduced orbits, and might catalyze fusion as muons do. But accepting hydrino theory turns on its head more accepted physics than the other cold fusion theories do; some of them, though still unsupported by demonstrated experimental predictions, don't require any new physics at all. (There is no new physics, to my knowledge, in Takahashi's Tetrahedral Symmetric Condensate theory, and the problem with its acceptance isn't the supposed unlikeliness of quad fusion -- that's an error based on the assumptions of plasma physics where nuclei are not confined, and four deuterons is simply two deuterium molecules assuming a favored tetrahedral arrangement if such are confined cubically -- rather, it is that there seems to be less effect from the hot alphas predicted; but I've been unable to find any clear source on that. There are hot alphas, that's known, and some of the effects are known, but people in the field seem to think, not enough.)

A true skeptical approach would avoid acceptance of theories that are not solidly supported by ample accurate prediction from them, and this would include the continued acceptance of theories that fail to predict behavior under new circumstances, not previously tested. It doesn't mean that one throws out the old theories; we did not throw out Newton's equations of motion because they were found not to apply under relativistic conditions. A true skeptic would be skeptical of all impossibility statements. Which doesn't mean that he rushes out and invests in BlackLight Power. The skeptic remains skeptical.

No theory is "scientific" if it cannot be falsified, and theories cannot be falsified if contrary evidence is discarded because it contradicts the theory!

The pseudoskeptics on Wikipedia mistook, and not beginning with me, attempts to include reliably sourced information that implied possible error in the "accepted facts about cold fusion" as pushing a fringe POV. Had these been attempts to assert the reality of cold fusion, the resistance and associated skepticism would have been quite appropriate. But they were not; rather, they were simply attempts to balance the article based on what is in reliable source. It came to the point that ordinary reliable source was being rejected because of the identity of authors (ignoring the implications of a reputable, independent publisher) and the supposed contradiction of implied theories, rejected by the "mainstream," but there is no mainstream as a coherent entity, there is only a collection of decisions made by editors and reviewers at peer-reviewed publications, or occasionally by review boards the like. And a large body of diffuse opinion, largely based on what is in media reports, and which we cannot really call "scientific."

Arguments that made some sense with, say, homeopathy, i.e., that isolated peer-reviewed publications didn't represent mainstream acceptance, were applied, explicitly, to cold fusion during the RfAr, it's in the evidence of Enric Naval that was cited as proof of my "tendentious editing." Enric's evidence, if one tracked it down through the links, presented some numbers about the proportion of peer-reviewed papers that were favorable or unfavorable to cold fusion, making it look like most papers were unfavorable. That was the opposite of the truth; the bibliography cited classifies papers as positive, negative, and neutral. In 1989, there were twice as many negative papers as positive, but it evened out in 1990, and every year after that, there were more positive papers than negative. What Enric did was to present the data as the numbers of positive papers compared to the total. Implying, then, that there were more negative than positive, by not mentioning "neutral." The excluded middle. If he was aware that he was doing that, he was a liar, it's quite possible to lie with true statements, because the essence of "lie" is intention to deceive.

Because the belief is common that cold fusion was rejected, my guess is that arbitrators, looking at Enric's evidence, didn't check the sources, because those numbers would confirm the belief, and they discounted my explanations either because they had come to believe I was tendentious and probably not worth checking out, or they simply didn't read them, which would have been understandable; in this case, though, I know that some arbitrators did read, so.... why didn't they tell the others?

I've left Wikipedia because of the failure of the best editors to defend what I was doing, not because of the jerks. Without that defense, I had no more reason to expose myself to the jerks in that environment. I rather doubt that conditions will be significantly better in three months.... but I could be wrong.

(The bibliography is the Dieter Britz bibliography. Jed Rothwell has done a detailed analysis of that bibliography, I cited it in quite a few places, it's whitelisted and very useful. He contests some of the neutral classifications as actually being positive; Britz was looking from a particular perspective, Rothwell claims. But, in any case, positive peer-reviewed papers, even as classified by Britz, now greatly outnumber negative ones, and recent publications have been almost entirely positive, and though the numbers greatly declined, in recent years they have been on the upswing, plus there have been some major publication events, such as the American Chemical Society's peer-reviewed Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Sourcebook, published by Oxford University Press, 2008, which was discussed extensively on the Reliable Source Noticeboard, pretty roundly ignored by the Cab editors that ArbComm turned the cold fusion article over to. The discussion was just archived.... The book is cllearly RS, contains quite a few reviews of the field, so it's peer-reviewed secondary source, recent, independently published, all the goodies, supposedly golden. And Enric dismissed it on RSN with "Hate to rain on your parade, but cold fusion is pathological science."

At least he didn't say "pseudoscience." But I'm not sure that "pathological" is better. It implies that anyone who gives any of it any credence is sick, deluded, or worse, quite possibly engaged in fraud.

Because he says so. Mathsci could remedy this. He could decide to check out the sources, instead of relying on math based on old accepted assumptions for his understanding of a physical sciences, and start to edit the article to conform to sources and guidelines. The error of failing to investigate the physical evidence, or, worse, rejecting it because one has a satisfying theory, is a very old one. We could call it pseudoscience, though, perhaps, it's pre-science.

There are people who believe or strongly suspect that low energy nuclear reactions are taking place. What's the evidence on which they base this? The pseudoskeptics ascribe it all to wishful thinking, hopes that the world's energy problems could be solved, or, worse, greed for fame or power. But ... is there any evidence, some small voice must be saying?

(I have no opinion that cold fusion will ever be a practical energy source, and that possibility has nothing to do with the science of low-energy nuclear reactions. The "brew me two cups of tea" argument is utterly unscientific. By the way, it used to be "one cup of tea" (Richard Garwin), but perhaps he's realized that they are getting close to one cup, he'd better up it some.

For Wikipedia, what evidence exists that is documented in reliable source? Especially in peer-reviewed secondary source? *All* that evidence should be mentioned somewhere on Wikipedia, not in redundant detail, but in substance. It's been excluded; Wikipedia did not invent this exclusion, but it need not maintain it, and it has been. The world has been moving on, the sources no longer represent the views that were prominent twenty years ago, there was a very visible shift in 2004. As I've written, the overall balance may not have shifted toward acceptance, but we don't actually know. Compared to the positive, there is very little recent negative source. Were there no significant positive source, that would be one thing, but ... there is plenty.

Against this, Mathsci has only his belief that he helped to ban a "disruptive editor." He's never engaged in any serious conversation on the topic. It's pretty obvious what is going on. The usual.

This post has been edited by Abd: Thu 24th September 2009, 12:00am
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Chindog
post Thu 24th September 2009, 12:19pm
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QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 23rd September 2009, 11:59pm) *

I've left Wikipedia because of the failure of the best editors to defend what I was doing, not because of the jerks.

What? You "left" Wikipedia because you were (and still are) banned by Arbcom for 3 months and banned from cold fusion for 12 months, for disruption and editing contrary to (and perhaps failing to understand) WP's RS and weight policies. You have no rights to edit. You didn't leave, you were kicked out. Let's at least be clear on that.
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Posts in this topic
Abd   JzG, same old same old   Mon 14th September 2009, 3:12pm
Cla68   Removes convenience copy of paper JzG made this...   Tue 15th September 2009, 12:13am
Abd   You should expect some editors to try to undo some...   Tue 15th September 2009, 1:39am
Cla68   It means to me that JzG hasn't changed his spo...   Tue 15th September 2009, 1:44am
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='194211' date='Tue 15th Sep...   Tue 15th September 2009, 2:03am
Milton Roe   Blatant sock. Yellowbeard was, as well, from the ...   Tue 15th September 2009, 2:08am
Abd   If he is [Nrcprm2026], there might be old checku...   Tue 15th September 2009, 3:31am
Son of a Yeti   JzG also still refuses to admit that he was wrong...   Thu 17th September 2009, 11:41am
Moulton   Has he ever admitted anything? If not, has he ever...   Thu 17th September 2009, 11:51am
Abd   [quote name='Son of a Yeti' post='194634' date='Th...   Thu 17th September 2009, 3:10pm
Chindog   However, there is an example very recently where h...   Fri 18th September 2009, 3:09am
Somey   Why would anybody email a person who doesn't w...   Fri 18th September 2009, 3:46am
Kato   Rick, what is your fascination with harassing JzG...   Fri 18th September 2009, 4:27am
Abd   However, there is an example very recently where ...   Fri 18th September 2009, 5:20am
Kato   I find the evil of some of their supporters worse,...   Fri 18th September 2009, 5:55am
Angela Kennedy   I find the evil of some of their supporters worse...   Fri 18th September 2009, 6:55am
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='194763' date='Fri 18th Se...   Fri 18th September 2009, 1:15pm
Moulton   I was supporting the principle of administrative r...   Fri 18th September 2009, 1:27pm
Abd   Recusal is a practice found in ethical cultures. ...   Fri 18th September 2009, 2:30pm
Moulton   Recusal is a practice found in ethical cultures. ...   Fri 18th September 2009, 3:23pm
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='194804' date='Fri 18th Sep...   Fri 18th September 2009, 7:45pm
Moulton   Jimbo put himself in charge of rejecting any effor...   Fri 18th September 2009, 7:51pm
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='194651' date='Thu 17th Se...   Tue 12th January 2010, 5:46pm
Mathsci   You should expect some editors to try to undo som...   Fri 18th September 2009, 7:06am
Cla68   BTW Abd's allegations of a cabal, rejected by...   Fri 18th September 2009, 7:49am
Moulton   And it's one, two, three, what are we fight fo...   Fri 18th September 2009, 12:06pm
Mathsci   BTW Abd's allegations of a cabal, rejected b...   Sat 19th September 2009, 12:27am
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='194775' date='Fri 18th ...   Sat 19th September 2009, 5:43am
Grep   Which users are you suggesting edit Wikipedia wit...   Sat 19th September 2009, 6:37am
Mathsci   Which users are you suggesting edit Wikipedia wi...   Sat 19th September 2009, 7:40am
Grep   [quote name='Grep' post='194931' date='Sat 19th S...   Sat 19th September 2009, 9:41am
Mathsci   These were pseudoscience articles by a related gro...   Sun 20th September 2009, 5:02am
EricBarbour   Just as when Abd was page banned, things will proc...   Fri 18th September 2009, 8:25am
Abd   [quote name='Mathsci' post='194773' date='Fri 18th...   Fri 18th September 2009, 2:10pm
Abd   [quote name='Cla68' post='194189' date='Tue 15th S...   Fri 18th September 2009, 1:58pm
Moulton   The wasted energy is enormous. Ayup.   Fri 18th September 2009, 2:16pm
Guido den Broeder   Don't be surprised if a group of editors will ...   Tue 15th September 2009, 1:12am
Moulton   It is customary in WikiCulture to stubbornly cling...   Tue 15th September 2009, 1:51am
SirFozzie   I think your "cabal" page ought to be de...   Tue 15th September 2009, 5:18am
EricBarbour   Abd, why do you keep acting "surprised' w...   Tue 15th September 2009, 8:04am
Abd   Abd, why do you keep acting "surprised' w...   Tue 15th September 2009, 1:01pm
dtobias   He does seem to have adopted the WR meme that it i...   Tue 15th September 2009, 12:32pm
Moulton   It is a pleasant surprise when someone acquires su...   Tue 15th September 2009, 1:37pm
Moulton   Sominex dealers should be afraid. Very afraid.   Thu 17th September 2009, 3:14pm
Abd   Sominex dealers should be afraid. Very afraid.I a...   Thu 17th September 2009, 3:27pm
Viridae   Why would anybody email a person who doesn't ...   Fri 18th September 2009, 2:27pm
Angela Kennedy   [quote name='Somey' post='194756' date='Fri 18th ...   Sun 20th September 2009, 7:48am
Somey   Could we PLEASE refrain from the 'autistic...   Mon 21st September 2009, 5:40am
Angela Kennedy   Could we PLEASE refrain from the 'autistic...   Mon 21st September 2009, 6:35am
dogbiscuit   Twat, poopy pants, prick or arsehole is absolutel...   Mon 21st September 2009, 8:59am
Angela Kennedy   [quote name='Angela Kennedy' post='195170' date='...   Mon 21st September 2009, 10:58am
dogbiscuit   Monday morning- and I'm fighting for the righ...   Mon 21st September 2009, 11:01am
Grep   So you have indeed been trying to eliminate ...   Sun 20th September 2009, 6:56am
Mathsci   So you have indeed been trying to eliminate ...   Sun 20th September 2009, 7:32am
Achromatic   I'm quite happy to see pseudoscience articles...   Mon 21st September 2009, 5:33am
Appleby   Why? Leave aside the barrow-pushers, but what is ...   Mon 21st September 2009, 8:33pm
Mathsci   I'm quite happy to see pseudoscience article...   Mon 21st September 2009, 9:17pm
Abd   [quote name='Achromatic' post='195164' date='Mon 2...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 2:39am
Mathsci   Mathsci, you have helped a total ignoramus on sci...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 3:48am
Somey   But it's just a stub. Please move on. No need ...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 4:20am
Mathsci   But it's just a stub. Please move on. No need...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 10:05pm
Milton Roe   [quote name='Somey' post='195342' date='Tue 22nd ...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 11:01pm
Somey   [quote name='Mathsci' post='195341' date='Mon 21st...   Thu 24th September 2009, 6:27am
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='195753' date='Wed 23rd Sep...   Thu 24th September 2009, 5:48pm
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   They are not suitable for inclusion in an encyclop...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 5:17am
Angela Kennedy   [quote name='Achromatic' post='195164' date='Mon ...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 2:50pm
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   Aaagh! The old 'pseudoscience' name-ca...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 9:50pm
Grep   I'm quite happy to see pseudoscience articles...   Wed 23rd September 2009, 6:45pm
Appleby   I see that Einstein–Cartan–Evans theory is cu...   Wed 23rd September 2009, 9:30pm
Abd   [quote name='Grep' post='195642' date='Wed 23rd Se...   Thu 24th September 2009, 12:16am
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   "Pseudoscience" is essentially an insult...   Thu 24th September 2009, 2:08am
Appleby   Indeed, and what is a pseudoscience can change ove...   Tue 22nd September 2009, 8:18pm
Kelly Martin   Being wrong doesn't make a theory "pseudo...   Wed 23rd September 2009, 9:51pm
Abd   warning: long. Being wrong doesn't make a the...   Wed 23rd September 2009, 11:59pm
Chindog   I've left Wikipedia because of the failure of...   Thu 24th September 2009, 12:19pm
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='195709' date='Wed 23rd Sep...   Thu 24th September 2009, 7:27pm
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   The problem isn't the bad guys, the problem is...   Fri 25th September 2009, 1:55am
gomi   When will you Wikipidiots get through your thick, ...   Thu 24th September 2009, 2:42am
Abd   When will you Wikipidiots get through your thick, ...   Thu 24th September 2009, 3:36am
Grep   When will you Wikipidiots get through your thick,...   Thu 24th September 2009, 6:12am
gomi   [quote name='gomi' post='195743' date='Thu 24th S...   Thu 24th September 2009, 5:55pm
Grep   In short, it's [i]the free encyclopedia that...   Thu 24th September 2009, 6:30pm
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   When will you Wikipidiots get through your thick, ...   Thu 24th September 2009, 5:19pm
Abd   But I heard that the Cold Fusion topic is going to...   Thu 24th September 2009, 6:03pm
Moulton   If I were younger, more energetic, and considerabl...   Thu 24th September 2009, 12:49pm


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