JB/Looch: "A couple things" Options

[Wiki Witch of the West]

At any rate, Wikipedia's "no legal threats" policy is not a prohibition against actually exercising legal rights.

That's what people say when they defend the policy's existence, but it doesn't stop it from being used as a block rationale for those cases.

The difference is that neither Fran, David, nor I discussed our intentions onsite until after we had already carried them out--at which point it was no longer a threat but an actual action--and none of our descriptions had any bearing upon legitimate editorial discussion.

We were responding to people who played dirty--very dirty.

----
Now to get back to the thread's opening post. JB, the situation is simple. To the best of my knowledge it's been so long since you've socked that you meet part of the requirement for the standard offer. You also need to promise not to repeat the problems that led to your ban. That has something to do with acknowledging them, rather than engaging in social engineering.

You expressed regret for what happened with Eyrian in a manner that tried to exonerate yourself and make me look bad. How do you feel about the other editors? Let's start with Curse of Fenric, who quit the site and never returned while you refused to come clean about the BooyakaDell account being you. If you'd only shot straight back then, we would have worked out a deal that didn't siteban you. How do you feel about Alkivar, who lost his tools and can't run for RFA again because he believed and trusted you?

You don't have to answer in detail. Just show you're for real and I'll initiate your unban discussion today. SirFozzie and Alison would probably endorse it.

[Random832]

Anyway, if we're going to talk about !!, let's talk about it.

We aren't. That's got nothing to do with JB196 or the FBI cases.

The FBI cases have got nothing to do with JB196 either - and anyway, there's a whole forum, why not talk about it in another thread? You could at least answer some of the questions.

[Wiki Witch of the West]

Anyway, if we're going to talk about !!, let's talk about it.

We aren't. That's got nothing to do with JB196 or the FBI cases.

The FBI cases have got nothing to do with JB196 either - and anyway, there's a whole forum, why not talk about it in another thread? You could at least answer some of the questions.

Shoo. You exhibit less interest in getting JB unbanned than in digging up irrelevant dirt. Help the dude out if you like him, or else at least be polite enough to remain silent.

[Random832]

Shoo. You exhibit less interest in getting JB unbanned than in digging up irrelevant dirt. Help the dude out if you like him, or else at least be polite enough to remain silent.

You say that like it's not possible to talk about more than one thing at the same time.

I've created a new thread: http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=27250

You can answer the questions, or not, I guess. I'm done with this thread. I wasn't the one who brought it up.

[Wiki Witch of the West]

Shoo. You exhibit less interest in getting JB unbanned than in digging up irrelevant dirt. Help the dude out if you like him, or else at least be polite enough to remain silent.

You say that like it's not possible to talk about more than one thing at the same time.

I've created a new thread: http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=27250

You can answer the questions, or not, I guess. I'm done with this thread. I wasn't the one who brought it up.

If anyone here is less bitter and vindictive than Random832, send Looch a holler that I'm willing to sit down and talk about his situation. Wikipedia was having trouble loading for a moment earlier. The link is Wikipedia:Standard offer.

This post has been edited by Wiki Witch of the West: Thu 12th November 2009, 6:48pm

[Random832]

bitter and vindictive

..what the hell? ...reported.

Why were you willing to answer TFA's unrelated questions but not mine? What grudge do you imagine me to have?

This post has been edited by Random832: Thu 12th November 2009, 6:51pm

[Wiki Witch of the West]

bitter and vindictive

..what the hell?


...reported.

Quite the way to help get a WR member unbanned: start a new thread to trash the person who makes the offer and then report them. That will really motivate Wikipedians to help banned editors return.

This post has been edited by Wiki Witch of the West: Thu 12th November 2009, 6:52pm

[Somey]

How do you feel about Alkivar, who lost his tools and can't run for RFA again because he believed and trusted you?

I didn't follow this all that closely at the time because I was otherwise preoccupied, but I didn't (and still don't) get the impression that Alkivar's admin privileges were revoked specifically because of what you perceived as his assisting JB196 in a "conspiracy". In fact, several commenters stated that your evidence related to JB196, which you refused to make public because you did "not wish to educate him at how to be more subtle or effective at damaging Wikipedia," was only a small portion of the numerous complaints against Mr. Alkivar, many of which were (IMO) basically vindictive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_tal...tration/Alkivar

I'm not going to argue the point that JB196 has done "damage" to Wikipedia, nor would I argue that Alkivar's loss of privileges was totally unwarranted (though I would certainly say that others have kept their privileges after doing far worse things). But you do have a history of inflating the significance of your argument positions, as well as the importance of your role in dealing with disputes and so-called "investigations."

You may disagree, of course...

[Random832]

Quite the way to help get a WR member unbanned: start a new thread to trash the person who makes the offer and then report them. That will really motivate Wikipedians to help banned editors return.

I reported you for making a ridiculous accusation against me. This has nothing to do with JB (and neither does the FBI stuff that you had absolutely no problem answering TFA's questions about, so again what the hell?)

I was not "trashing" you. I asked non-rhetorical questions directed to you intended to be answered by you, and then you started trashing me for no apparent reason.

This should probably be split into a new thread (along with the FBI stuff and all the other stuff starting from Cla68's post) so as to not disrupt the original topic of discussion.

This post has been edited by Random832: Thu 12th November 2009, 7:03pm

[Somey]

Quite the way to help get a WR member unbanned: start a new thread to trash the person who makes the offer and then report them. That will really motivate Wikipedians to help banned editors return.

Just to be clear on this point, I doubt that anyone here particularly cares if Mr. Looch/JB196 ever gets unbanned - I know I don't, anyway. Few people would blame WP'ers for getting exasperated at that many alternate accounts, and frankly, pro wrestling isn't exactly a "serious subject," even looking at it from a cultural perspective (which Mr. Looch really doesn't).

[Jon Awbrey]

Shoo. You exhibit less interest in getting JB unbanned than in digging up irrelevant dirt. Help the dude out if you like him, or else at least be polite enough to remain silent.

n00bs, n00bs, n00bs …

W²OTW clearly didn't read the FAQ about the Main Mission of The Wikipedia Review, AKA Wikipediots Anonanonanonymous.

The whole purpose of our Patented Tuff Wub Intervention™ Noob E-Contra Group is to "help the dude out" by helping him stay banned for life.

Of course, asking for help is the first step, Ms. West …

Jon

[Random832]

Quite the way to help get a WR member unbanned: start a new thread to trash the person who makes the offer and then report them. That will really motivate Wikipedians to help banned editors return.

I just realized this... since you still seem to have the faulty assumption that WR is somehow a 'team' (and thus can be manipulated into turning against me for some imagined disruption of an attempt to unban someone), those questions are now even more relevant than I'd thought when I asked them

Oh and BTW - your standard offer sucks, especially since it tends to encourage people's enemies to manufacture sockpuppets to make them fail criterion 1. It also really belongs in your userspace, not the project namespace.

[dogbiscuit]

Quite the way to help get a WR member unbanned: start a new thread to trash the person who makes the offer and then report them. That will really motivate Wikipedians to help banned editors return.

I just realized this... since you still seem to have the faulty assumption that WR is somehow a 'team' (and thus can be manipulated into turning against me for some imagined disruption of an attempt to unban someone), those questions are now even more relevant than I'd thought when I asked them

Oh and BTW - your standard offer sucks, especially since it tends to encourage people's enemies to manufacture sockpuppets to make them fail criterion 1. It also really belongs in your userspace, not the project namespace.

FWIW, Random832, annoying as it is, miscast aspersions aren't something we usually get over-excited about as moderators. In fact, the non-sequitur of that put down rather points to the usual Wikipedian modus-operandi of being unable to answer straight-forward questions that would, as you point out elsewhere, clear the air, so to me it reflects far worse on Durova than on you.

That is why Wikipedians are generally found to be quite irritating here - happy to borrow the platform for their own purposes, but unwilling to engage in what could be constructive dialogue.

[Wiki Witch of the West]

If anyone wants to discuss JB's editing status today just have them email me. Six more of my restorations got promoted to featured picture on the Turkish Wikipedia and I'll be expressing thanks by restoring a World War I Turkish heliograph crew at Huj.

In spite of Random832's disruption I haven't withdrawn the offer to Looch, but don't push it.

[dogbiscuit]

If anyone wants to discuss JB's editing status today just have them email me. Six more of my restorations got promoted to featured picture on the Turkish Wikipedia and I'll be expressing thanks by restoring a World War I Turkish heliograph crew at Huj.

In spite of Random832's disruption I haven't withdrawn the offer to Looch, but don't push it.

[Somey]

I just realized this... since you still seem to have the faulty assumption that WR is somehow a 'team' (and thus can be manipulated into turning against me for some imagined disruption of an attempt to unban someone), those questions are now even more relevant than I'd thought when I asked them

Agreed. By the way, if you don't show up for practice this Saturday, we're going to have to start Carbuncle at Left Tackle, and you already know our offensive line has been devastated by injuries.

As for Mr. Looch/JB, I can't really see any way he could ever be unbanned on WP, nor does it probably matter to him. If anything, his acceptance of the "standard offer" would only result in having everyone see that the offer in question is an ineffective means of dealing with cases like his.

If we take him at his word, it appears his main (only?) concern is that others are being banned for supposedly being sock-puppets of himself. That's really the main (only?) thing he ever posts about here, anyway.

[GlassBeadGame]

It was created to help the people who were victims of it. And principally, dealing with that problem was exactly what it tried to do.

On several occasions, you have stated that you filed an official FBI complaint about your own perceptions of being stalked because of Wikipedia. Other than the fact that you filed this case (reportedly with David Shankbone, ironically only about a week or so after he posted my name, occupation, sexual orientation and lots of other personal information all over Wikipedia, without being as much as banned for a week...), no other information seems to be available about this.

Without going into any personal details, would you be so kind as to fill us in on the FBI's investigation and whether or not they found that any actual "stalking" took place, by their definition of the term? Since it's been more than a year, I'm sure that they have come to some sort of conclusion...

To date, I have seen much more stalking of Wikipedia's critics, rather than Wikipedia's supporters. But perhaps that is more of a comment on my own position, rather than reflective of any reality.

First, let's be clear about something: stalking is a state offense in California. The FBI is a federal law enforcement agency. Their case was opened over harassment.

About half of the cases that the FBI opens on that basis really don't need to go anywhere because the perpetrator stops as soon as they learn that the Feds are on it. That was what happened in this instance. The fellow was a coward and stopped bothering me as soon as it went public. He tried to resume his on-wiki attacks on a few BLPs afterward, but other people dealt with that. The reason he had targeted me in the first place was because I hadn't let him get away with BLP violations.

Other than the coincidence of timing, David Shankbone and I filed two separate and unrelated reports that the FBI considered meritorious enough to open cases. The two perpetrators were obviously different people who lived on opposite sides of the country.

This isn't an attempt to vindicate David in everything he does--am well aware of the history between you and wish it were possible to make that situation better--but I did have specific reasons to believe David was telling the truth about that FBI matter. One of the reasons was that, before the individual had started targeting David, he was targeting a particular BLP subject. The topic of that BLP was distasteful and of no interest to me, but I was answering a lot of requests for comment during that period and responded to two requests for comment there. On both occasions there had been an IP editor who was acting strangely and trying to reinterpret site policies to the BLP subject's disadvantage. In ways that aren't worth detailing here, that later turned out to be the tip of a nasty iceberg.

Unfortunately that doesn't make your situation any easier or better. I wish it did. No magic bullets here.

Thank you for an accounting of that situation.

Would it therefore be fair to say that the FBI closed these two cases without any action being taken?

I don't expect to anyone to do anything about the stalking of me that took place on Wikipedia. Those actions undertaken by that specific individual speak for themselves. It simply needs to be pointed out that Wikipedia has been used on more than one occasion as a "stalking tool", so it seems to me that fingers could (and should) be pointed in both directions.

The fact that people who have undertaken such actions remain "respected editors" on Wikipedia also speaks for itself.

Wouldn't presume to speak for David's situation, which was more difficult. If the problems resumed on my own end they would be fairly easy to resolve. The individual was active from a stable location. If he were to resume contact I still have the case number, and it would be very foolish of him to draw that attention to himself. Am not sure exactly what administrative status the FBI assigns to that sort of peaceful stasis. They rated the complaint meritorious enough to open an investigation, and further action wasn't necessary to end the problem.

At any rate, Wikipedia's "no legal threats" policy is not a prohibition against actually exercising legal rights. It simply means one doesn't use the threat of action as an attempt to coerce editorial discussion. Apparently Krimpet is taking legal action against Grawp, and good for her. It appears to have raised her clout within the community.

So you have nothing to report that is subject to any kind of verification and you are telling us further to not expect any additional news? This is exactly the same result as if someone said they made a complaint but in fact didn't. Exactly the same result as if someone made a complaint and was told that it was baseless. This coming from a person known to exaggerate and pursue baseless "investigations."

[Somey]

So you have nothing to report that is subject to any kind of verification and you are telling us further to not expect any additional news?

Well, to be fair, she did say "apparently" with regard to Krimpet's problem... As for her own situation, I see no reason not to take her at her word that she actually made a complaint and obtained a case number. Her description of what supposedly resulted pretty much jibes with what a realistic person would expect, IMO.

It's not like she's claiming that a SWAT team was dispatched to deal with the vicious criminal who was bashing her online... or even a squadron of Stealth Bombers, which is what I probably would have said.

[GlassBeadGame]

So you have nothing to report that is subject to any kind of verification and you are telling us further to not expect any additional news?

Well, to be fair, she did say "apparently" with regard to Krimpet's problem... As for her own situation, I see no reason not to take her at her word that she actually made a complaint and obtained a case number. Her description of what supposedly resulted pretty much jibes with what a realistic person would expect, IMO.

It's not like she's claiming that a SWAT team was dispatched to deal with the vicious criminal who was bashing her online... or even a squadron of Stealth Bombers, which is what I probably would have said.

Aaahhh, a case number. I liked it better when law enforcement gave victims cigar bands to evidence complaints. They were more tangible and provided greater reassurance that something is actually being done.

[Somey]

Aaahhh, a case number. I liked it better when law enforcement gave victims cigar bands to evidence complaints. They were more tangible and provided greater reassurance that something is actually being done.

Well, I think the more enlightened approach, which some countries are now considering, is to just give the complainant a bottle of Viagra pills and some body lotion so they'll have something interesting to do while they wait for the authorities to take decisive action.

Admittedly that doesn't really help the female complainants quite as much, but you can't expect governments to "play favorites."