Ottava leaves Wikipedia Options

[Somey]

All of the fun that comes from using the term "hijinx" (or "hijinks") is derived from being about to use three dotted letters in a row. Sheesh.

Perhaps he meant to suggest that Messrs. Moreschi and Folantin were intoxicated at the time of these incidents.

Meanwhile, Fiji is a nice vacation spot where people can indulge in all sorts of hijinks mit jij, as they say somewhere in Scandinavia.

[CharlotteWebb]

All of the fun that comes from using the term "hijinx" (or "hijinks") is derived from being about to use three dotted letters in a row. Sheesh.

Öŕ ĵüśť ďőť ‘ėṁ äĺĺ àńď ĺėť ģŏď ŝöṙṫ ‘éḿ ȯůť… (as Grawp and/or Ryulong would surely say).

[Milton Roe]

A lot of high-jinx by Moreschi and Folantin has by documented here by yours truly Perhaps a run-down of some of these incidents might be useful :

All of the fun that comes from using the term "hijinx" (or "hijinks") is derived from being about to use three dotted letters in a row. Sheesh.

A fun word. I'll put it in my list of fun words.

Bookkeeper
Phlegm
Hijinks

Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz.

[MZMcBride]

A lot of high-jinx by Moreschi and Folantin has by documented here by yours truly Perhaps a run-down of some of these incidents might be useful :

All of the fun that comes from using the term "hijinx" (or "hijinks") is derived from being about to use three dotted letters in a row. Sheesh.

A fun word. I'll put it in my list of fun words.

Bookkeeper
Phlegm
Hijinks

Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz.

"nth" is great as it contains no vowels. "ixnay" is great for playing hangman or SCRABBLE®. (Is this thread sufficiently off-topic yet?)

[LaraLove]

"nth" is great as it contains no vowels. "ixnay" is great for playing hangman or SCRABBLE®. (Is this thread sufficiently off-topic yet?)

Next meetup, I'm bringing SCRABBLE®. You missed the noise complaint that we, four nerds on laptops, got in the hotel, but we can try again with a word game next time.

[thekohser]

RHYTHM is a great Hangman word, too.

[anthony]

"nth" is great as it contains no vowels. "ixnay" is great for playing hangman or SCRABBLE®. (Is this thread sufficiently off-topic yet?)

Next meetup, I'm bringing SCRABBLE®. You missed the noise complaint that we, four nerds on laptops, got in the hotel, but we can try again with a word game next time.

Make sure you bring the official dictionary too. "ixnay" isn't in it (unless maybe you're using the pig latin edition?).

This post has been edited by anthony: Sun 15th November 2009, 1:19am

[Somey]

(Is this thread sufficiently off-topic yet?)

Well, like I posted earlier, if the whole point is to keep the words "Ottava leaves Wikipedia" on the WR homepage as long as possible, or at least long enough for it to stimulate the "pleasure centers" of everyones' brains, then it really doesn't matter what we talk about, as long as the thread title remains constant.

So let me ask you all this, then: Is it really appropriate for a 50-year old in 2009 to go to a cocktail lounge and request that the 67-year-old entertainer play Perry Como songs? Or is that, like, "ageism"?

[MZMcBride]

"nth" is great as it contains no vowels. "ixnay" is great for playing hangman or SCRABBLE®. (Is this thread sufficiently off-topic yet?)

Next meetup, I'm bringing SCRABBLE®. You missed the noise complaint that we, four nerds on laptops, got in the hotel, but we can try again with a word game next time.

Make sure you bring the official dictionary too. "ixnay" isn't in it (unless maybe you're using the pig latin edition?).

Have you learned nothing from Wikipedia? It's not about whether the word is in the dictionary, it's about who can shout the loudest and argue (or complain) the most. Beside, every real SCRABBLE® player defers to Wiktionary, obviously.

(Is this thread sufficiently off-topic yet?)

Well, like I posted earlier, if the whole point is to keep the words "Ottava leaves Wikipedia" on the WR homepage as long as possible, or at least long enough for it to stimulate the "pleasure centers" of everyones' brains, then it really doesn't matter what we talk about, as long as the thread title remains constant.

So let me ask you all this, then: Is it really appropriate for a 50-year old in 2009 to go to a cocktail lounge and request that the 67-year-old entertainer play Perry Como songs? Or is that, like, "ageism"?

I think it'd be more inappropriate, though likely much more amusing, to ask the entertainer to play Jay-Z songs. Though you know how old people are, he'd probably just stare blankly. Much like I did at the Perry Como reference. God bless Wikipedia.

[Coffee]

"nth" is great as it contains no vowels. "ixnay" is great for playing hangman or SCRABBLE®. (Is this thread sufficiently off-topic yet?)

Next meetup, I'm bringing SCRABBLE®. You missed the noise complaint that we, four nerds on laptops, got in the hotel, but we can try again with a word game next time.

Damnit... to think you could have actually gotten kicked out if I had been there...

[the fieryangel]

let me ask you all this, then: Is it really appropriate for a 50-year old in 2009 to go to a cocktail lounge and request that the 67-year-old entertainer play Perry Como songs? Or is that, like, "ageism"?

Hey, it's trad, Dad! Hot diggeity!

On a related note, it's looks as if OR is starting to put the pieces together.

As I've said before, the only real solution here is to place editing restrictions on Moreschi and Folantin to avoid interactions with OR, and to forbid Moreschi to take any administrative action against him.

...and it might be nice if, for once, the Arbcom told these people that the rules apply to them too!

[the fieryangel]

OR has posted further findings on his talkpage.

The number of concordant AfD votes is pretty damning. It would be helpful if others could comment on these diffs and stats.

This AfD, of an obviously notable subject, was entirely created for spite. The entire discussion was an attempt to get revenge because they had to source their pet opera lists....So, the "opposite sides of the fence" here is only an attempt to create more drama.

PS: for context Adam Cuerden (T-C-L-K-R-D) is now editing as Shoemaker's Holiday (T-C-L-K-R-D) , both active on the Opera project and also active on the so-called "Fringe Theories Noticeboard".

[the fieryangel]

Then there's this diff :

===Thoughts from Moreschi===

Upon study of the logs from IRC, and upon review of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_10#Romance_vs_Romantic_2], it seems that Ottava has a rather odd view of the humanities, and some bizarre views surrounding logic and opinions. Essentially, his position is that the fields of literature, history etc can be usefully described as sciences, with an established and orderly system of rules and minimal space for dissent from established norms. One might call this math envy, I suppose. It's a common problem in philosophy, the envy of the clarity and accuracy of pure mathematics: logical propositions true in any world.

But more accurately, Ottava seems to be suffering from "science envy". Now, while science contains enormous space for dissent, there are certain established norms which most people sign up to: the earth is however many billions of years old, Darwin was largely right about evolution, global warming is a problem, homeopathy is bunk, etc. These are backed by exhaustive research and evaulations of mathematical data. And Ottava thinks literature functions in a similar way. But it doesn't. There just isn't a literary set of norms, nor a historical set of norms, because the sources are ''personal'' and not ''statistical''. That Ottava can be so deeply educated and yet so completely mis-educated is somewhat depressing.

Regardless, this explains, I think, a great deal of Ottava's tendentiousness. In science, you see, someone has to be right! The scientists and the AIDS denialists can't both be right, nor can the homeopaths and the anti-homeopaths. But this doesn't apply to literature, or history, or indeed any other field of humanities. The problem we have is that the minute Ottava enters a dispute, he clams up to the possibility of compromise as if he were a scientist being confronted with a flat-earth theorist. Of course, his opponents rarely are flat-earth theorists, and sometimes ([[Persian Empire]], and what a screaming example of [[Wikipedia:Sword-skeleton theory]] that was) Ottava comes dangerously close to being the flat-earther himself.

These are clearly deeply ingrained views, and I don't think Ottava is likely to change them any more than he's going to abandon his radical Catholicism. That isn't helping either, by the way: the courage of conviction needed to hold such faith is deeply admirable, but when the courage of convictions is applied to other fields where compromise is needed, we then have a mindset unfit for collaborative editing. It is, of course, perfectly possible to separate religious faith from other parts of one's mindset, but Ottava doesn't.

Such, at any rate, is my analysis of the mindset that had led us to RFAR. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) 16:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

....This looks to me as if it's crossed the line into personal attacks. It's on the Arbcom Workshop case, so the Arbs can't say that they didn't see it.

The question is : in a project which tries to pretend that it is the "sum of all human knowledge", is there room for conflicting viewpoints?

People are orthodox jews/muslems/catholics/protestants etc. There are enough of them that their viewpoint form part of "the sum of all human knowledge".

How is labeling these belief systems as "radical" helping the process of writing an encyclopedia? And isn't this the core issue here?

[Mathsci]

Nice to see that fieryangel is using this as an opportunity to get back at wikiproject music editors. There's nothing like settling a grudge, is there? Funny thing when wikipedia doesn't have articles on Francis Poulenc's sextet for piano and wind but has plenty of articles on the lesser known works of "Les Six". (I wrote the article on Darius Milhaud's wind quintet, but then again I wasn't the publisher.)

The OUTING of Ottava Rima has been noticed on wikipedia and the giveway quote on Moreschi's talk page removed. It might be oversighted although it's probably too late, particularly since the quote has been posted in this thread, I agree with Fowler&Fowler that OR's writing skills, even as a would-be rural hack, are not impressive, certainly not those I would expect of a professional writer. One of those whom OR has attacked is Dieter Bachmann whose biography can be read here. It's very hard to imagine why, since dab is completely reasonable and very knowledgeable. He is also almost 70.

OR does remind me a bit of Peter Haines. There are various similarities. Things worked out fine for Peter in the end.

[GlassBeadGame]

Then there's this diff :

===Thoughts from Moreschi===

Upon study of the logs from IRC, and upon review of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_10#Romance_vs_Romantic_2], it seems that Ottava has a rather odd view of the humanities, and some bizarre views surrounding logic and opinions. Essentially, his position is that the fields of literature, history etc can be usefully described as sciences, with an established and orderly system of rules and minimal space for dissent from established norms. One might call this math envy, I suppose. It's a common problem in philosophy, the envy of the clarity and accuracy of pure mathematics: logical propositions true in any world.

But more accurately, Ottava seems to be suffering from "science envy". Now, while science contains enormous space for dissent, there are certain established norms which most people sign up to: the earth is however many billions of years old, Darwin was largely right about evolution, global warming is a problem, homeopathy is bunk, etc. These are backed by exhaustive research and evaulations of mathematical data. And Ottava thinks literature functions in a similar way. But it doesn't. There just isn't a literary set of norms, nor a historical set of norms, because the sources are ''personal'' and not ''statistical''. That Ottava can be so deeply educated and yet so completely mis-educated is somewhat depressing.

Regardless, this explains, I think, a great deal of Ottava's tendentiousness. In science, you see, someone has to be right! The scientists and the AIDS denialists can't both be right, nor can the homeopaths and the anti-homeopaths. But this doesn't apply to literature, or history, or indeed any other field of humanities. The problem we have is that the minute Ottava enters a dispute, he clams up to the possibility of compromise as if he were a scientist being confronted with a flat-earth theorist. Of course, his opponents rarely are flat-earth theorists, and sometimes ([[Persian Empire]], and what a screaming example of [[Wikipedia:Sword-skeleton theory]] that was) Ottava comes dangerously close to being the flat-earther himself.

These are clearly deeply ingrained views, and I don't think Ottava is likely to change them any more than he's going to abandon his radical Catholicism. That isn't helping either, by the way: the courage of conviction needed to hold such faith is deeply admirable, but when the courage of convictions is applied to other fields where compromise is needed, we then have a mindset unfit for collaborative editing. It is, of course, perfectly possible to separate religious faith from other parts of one's mindset, but Ottava doesn't.

Such, at any rate, is my analysis of the mindset that had led us to RFAR. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) 16:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

....This looks to me as if it's crossed the line into personal attacks. It's on the Arbcom Workshop case, so the Arbs can't say that they didn't see it.

The question is : in a project which tries to pretend that it is the "sum of all human knowledge", is there room for conflicting viewpoints?

People are orthodox jews/muslems/catholics/protestants etc. There are enough of them that their viewpoint form part of "the sum of all human knowledge".

How is labeling these belief systems as "radical" helping the process of writing an encyclopedia? And isn't this the core issue here?

I think the comparison to the world religions is not helpful to understanding what "Moreschi" is getting at. A better comparison would be with Marxism-Leninism which purports to being "scientific." This notion that one's views on political and social matters have scientific underpinning is highly seductive and can lead to great intolerance to other views. In the case of Marxism-Leninism this can cause people who set out as humanists pursuing sympathetic ends to adopt tolalitarian means. "Moreschi" is saying that OR has characteristics similar to these in his pursuit of covering the humanities on WP. It is this belief in the "science" of his views that makes OR radical.

An appropriate encyclopedic approach to the world religions is to catalog the beliefs practices variations viewed from inside each of the various thought systems, not figure out which one is right of better.

[the fieryangel]

Nice to see that fieryangel is using this as an opportunity to get back at wikiproject music editors. There's nothing like settling a grudge, is there? Funny thing when wikipedia doesn't have articles on Francis Poulenc's sextet for piano and wind but has plenty of articles on the lesser known works of "Les Six". (I wrote the article on Darius Milhaud's wind quintet, but then again I wasn't the publisher.)

Neither was I, although I was accused of that. (I wish I was, however...). I would write the article about Poulenc's sextet, but I was told that I have a COI because of Les Six....even though I don't publish anything by Poulenc....and, of course, I'm still indefinitely blocked, out of process, by Moreschi...

Moreschi and Folantin have abused this system for too long. Hopefully, they'll get what they deserve.

If anything that I do furthers this objective, so be it.

Clear?

An appropriate encyclopedic approach to the world religions is to catalog the beliefs practices variations viewed from inside each of the various thought systems, not figure out which one is right of better.

Exactly. Which is why things such as the Fringe Theory Noticeboard should not exist. An encyclopedia is not in the business of judging. It's only purpose is to describe how things are, at any given time. So, pasting "fringe" labels on things is outside of the act of creating an encyclopedia.

The OUTING of Ottava Rima has been noticed on wikipedia and the giveway quote on Moreschi's talk page removed. It might be oversighted although it's probably too late, particularly since the quote has been posted in this thread,

Yup, nice friends you've got over there...Moreschi just isn't very smart to begin with.... (PS if OR wants this information redacted here, all he needs to do is to post that on his talkpage...However, I believe that this incident is more valuable to him if the proof remains documented here.)

[the fieryangel]

Antandrus presents his "evidence"...

...except, that when you follow the links to so-called "incivility" and "personal attacks", two things become clear: Antandrus is not a neutral party here at all and OR is being goaded into making these attacks.

Clearly, the problem is with both sides. Perhaps finally this point will become apparent.

Just because one is a longterm "content producer" doesn't mean that one has a pass to IAR...

[the fieryangel]

I'll let Bishonen comment on this important piece of "evidence" herself :

===It Was Not a Coincidence===

And finally, the quality, the worthwhileness, of the entire encyclopedia is compromised by my presence, haha! <big><big> [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bishonen&diff=319096031&oldid=319085290]</big></big> By me! Memememememememememe! Clickclickclickclick on the linklink! [''/me cackles dementedly, dons [[tinfoil hat]].'' ] [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 16:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC).

So, Bishonen, is this helpful?

(I think that they're all losing their marbles over there....)

If you follow that link, you get this :

:Don't pretend to be the victim. You came to the [[Drapier's Letters]] while it was at FAC and removed something that was utterly essential without discussion. You knew that it was the original dispute between Geogre and I, and you knew that Swift articles were the original problem because you were involved in it. It was not a coincidence that you came there and decided to antagonize and started deleting things inappropriately. You should have been banned long, long ago for your constant abuse and shady tactics. Then this encyclopedia would actually be something worth while. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 19:02, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

No "fuck offs", No "stupid twats", nothing even remotely close to the things that JzG dishes out without even a warning...Not nearly as snide as Slimmy can be.

Are you people's skins getting thinner or something? Or it that tinfoil hat on your head?

(and maybe, just maybe, these people also need to start following the rules too? and maybe she should have been banned for some of this, since other were indeed banned for much less?)

So, ARBCOM, do the rules apply to everybody or do they not? That's the question here.

Just for the record : I sent an email to several ARBCOM members about this inappropriate behavior on an "evidence" page for an ARBCOM case. We'll see if anything is done...

[the fieryangel]

Céci explique peut-être cela :

===Geogre's sockpuppetry===

Please see the now deleted Bishonen 4 RfC for evidence of Bishonen knowing that Geogre had a sock puppet for a very long time, aiding that sock puppetry, hiding that sock puppetry, and not doing anything to stop an admin with a sock puppet in edit wars, ban discussions, deletion of pages, and other forms of harassment. Please also note the intersections of this sock puppetry, including the April 2008 DRV, Moreschi's indef block of my account all listed above, Moreschi deleting the RfC out of process and my being blocked for restoring an RfC which had no AfD or correct CSD which would have made any prohibition of restoring it. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 16:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Moreschi acting out of process again? You don't say?

We must have a thread somewhere about this busines, but I can't find it...

[Somey]

On a related note, it's looks as if OR is starting to put the pieces together.

He's giving it his best shot, but as usual, he can't resist adding the inflammatory and utterly false misdirection towards the end, where he includes the line "Moreschi attacks my faith and real life work," followed by links to three diffs in which Moreschi does absolutely nothing of the sort. Obviously this is a classic, time-honored Wikipedian tactic, but you'd think he'd realize that he'd be under more scrutiny than the average gamer by now.

...and it might be nice if, for once, the Arbcom told these people that the rules apply to them too!

Well, they could tell them, but they're never going to believe it.