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> Ron Livingston Lawsuit Discussion, the beginning of the end?
Somey
post Sat 5th December 2009, 10:49pm
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QUOTE(tarantino @ Sat 5th December 2009, 4:36pm) *

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Che...s#Block_warning
QUOTE
Per WP:BIO it is inappropriate to speculate about the personal lives of living people without a full citation to support the claim. You have edited a large number of biographies to insinuate a romantic relationship with a casting director named Lee Denison, to the point where WP:VANDAL and WP:POINT become an issue. If this continues you will be blocked from editing. DurovaCharge! 03:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

This just gets better and better!

Apparently that user also submitted an article about someone named "Harry Dennison" which got speedied. Check out his blog!
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Daniel Brandt
post Sat 5th December 2009, 10:49pm
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 5th December 2009, 4:16pm) *

He has a point, but it's pretty clear that "Lee Dennison" is either not a real person at all, or a self-promoting hoaxster/spammer at best. Moreover, the contents of the AfD will probably come in handy for Livingston's legal team in establishing that WP did virtually nothing resembling "due diligence" in allowing the offending piece of info to be repeatedly added to Livingston's BLP article, not even going so far as to search their own archives.

They'll probably want the contents of the deleted article on "Dennison" himself too, I would imagine... ermm.gif


Lee Dennison Associates, casting director, producer in London

LATER: Oops, sorry, Somey already found this.
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victim of censorship
post Sat 5th December 2009, 11:12pm
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Any one have $4.75 to spare?
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Somey
post Sat 5th December 2009, 11:15pm
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The website that actually is listed for "Lee Dennison Associates" (leedennisonassociates.com) is owned by notorious domain squatters Navigation Catalyst, Inc., who are also known to run several domains that are malware-infested. (FWIW.)

This is starting to look like one of the most elaborate hoaxes we've seen, IMO. I suppose we should give WP some kudos for at least catching the more blatant aspects of it (i.e., the Lee and Harry Dennison articles themselves), but this should have been flagged as long-running/ongoing abuse or some such thing - whoever it was, he was clearly doing this to more than just one or two BLP articles.
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Daniel Brandt
post Sat 5th December 2009, 11:26pm
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I propose that Wikimedia Foundation begin a proper strategy to defend against this suit, on the assumption that the old knee-jerk Section 230 immunity claim dispatched by Godwin will be less convincing this time around. The Foundation should ask David Gerard to make an appointment with Foundation66 chief executive Sally Scriminger. Gerard should show up at the appointed time in his finest costume, and request, on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, that Ms. Scriminger begin a search of any available computer records at Foundation66 that may be relevant to this case.

A good-faith effort by the Foundation is better late than never, perhaps... laugh.gif
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victim of censorship
post Sat 5th December 2009, 11:47pm
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QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Sat 5th December 2009, 11:26pm) *
A good-faith effort by the Foundation is better late than never, perhaps... laugh.gif


This is what wikipeida is all about... NLT.. or wiki telling the world to "F" off..

I wonder if Ron tried to find resolution to this, only to have the wikileet jack him around for months/years on end?

I would love to see the court filings.
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One
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:01am
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I don't believe Wikipedia is a defendant in this complaint.
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Sarcasticidealist
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:03am
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QUOTE(One @ Sat 5th December 2009, 8:01pm) *
I don't believe Wikipedia is a defendant in this complaint.
Yeah, that was my question. The article rather unhelpfully doesn't tell who the defendant is. But if not the WMF (which I assume is what you meant by "Wikipedia", or you'd have been stating the obvious), who?
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One
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:07am
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QUOTE(victim of censorship @ Sat 5th December 2009, 9:45pm) *


It's going to be a rough year for the Wiki legal dream team. Here is more lawsuits..

GIVE UP THE MAN - PLANET WIKI

I don't believe Wikimedia is a defendant. They're apparently very willing to cooperate with discovery. No skin off their nose.

Sarc: I wanted to revise that. I believe it's a John Doe defendant. The suit is a means to discovery of the defendant's identity.

This post has been edited by One: Sun 6th December 2009, 12:15am
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GlassBeadGame
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:14am
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QUOTE(One @ Sat 5th December 2009, 7:07pm) *
I don't believe Wikimedia is a defendant. They're apparently very willing to cooperate with discovery. No skin of their nose.


They could always amend the complaint to conform with discovery. It might be good strategy to secure WMF's cooperation first. Still, more likely they will stick with user defendant(s). Challenges to Section 230 immunity could be a thankless task. It would probably be avoided unless it was one of their client's objectives.
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Sarcasticidealist
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:16am
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sat 5th December 2009, 8:14pm) *
Still ,more likely they will stick with user defendant(s).
At risk of disgracing law students everywhere...the article says that the lawsuit's been filed. How is that possible if he's sticking with user defendant(s) and doesn't know who those are?

(In my defense, I don't take civil procedure until next semester.)
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One
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:17am
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QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Sun 6th December 2009, 12:16am) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sat 5th December 2009, 8:14pm) *
Still ,more likely they will stick with user defendant(s).
At risk of disgracing law students everywhere...the article says that the lawsuit's been filed. How is that possible if he's sticking with user defendant(s) and doesn't know who those are?

(In my defense, I don't take civil procedure until next semester.)

John Doe defendants.

I guess law students in Canada aren't familiar with autoadmit.com aka xoxohth, and the suits resulting from that "law school discussion" forum? That might be to your credit, or perhaps it's a generational thing. Good for you. Degenerate forum.

This post has been edited by One: Sun 6th December 2009, 12:21am
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GlassBeadGame
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:18am
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QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Sat 5th December 2009, 7:16pm) *
At risk of disgracing law students everywhere...the article says that the lawsuit's been filed. How is that possible if he's sticking with user defendant(s) and doesn't know who those are?

(In my defense, I don't take civil procedure until next semester.)


File a "John Doe" type action, describing the defendant through their actions. This give you access to the discovery needed to fill out the complaint more fully.
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Sarcasticidealist
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:22am
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QUOTE(One @ Sat 5th December 2009, 8:17pm) *
I guess law students in Canada aren't familiar with xoxohth? That might be to your credit, or perhaps it's a generational thing. Good for you. Degenerate forum.
I can't imagine it's worse than lawstudents.ca, which consists mostly of people bragging about their LSAT scores while denigrating everybody else's approach to everything. I haven't been there in a while, so I'm not sure if they've finally added a forum where people can post pictures of their penises next to rulers, but that would really save a lot of words.

Anyway, I'll stop now, lest I be the cause of two thread splits in one week.



Moderator's note: TOO LATE! Posts involving the Section 230 ramifications of the Livingston lawsuit were split to this thread, for the sake of clarity. Also, because we like pie.
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Daniel Brandt
post Sun 6th December 2009, 12:29am
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Wikipedia and the scraper situation: Libel wants to be free!

QUOTE
Google search for:
"Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison"

Ron Livingston Info | Facebook
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.facebook.com/pages/Ron-Livingston/63536163026?v=info - Cached

Ron Livingston - SideReel
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.sidereel.com/Ron_Livingston - Cached - Similar

Ron Livingston gossip & pictures
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
gossip24.com/Celebrity/Ron-Livingston/201.html - Cached

Ron Livingston
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.filmjamr.com/wiki/CAST/edit/81056/Ron-Livingston - Cached

Ron Livingston
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
filmjamr.com/wiki/CAST/edit/81056/Ron-Livingston - Cached

Ron Livingston Biography, Profile, Filmography, Discography and ...
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.celebritygenius.com/Ron-Livingston/biography.html?title=HBO

About | in Northwest England UK
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.nw4u.co.uk/about?view=mediawiki&article=Ron_Livingston

Boston University School of Theology Archives
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
sthweb.bu.edu/archives/index.php?option=com_awiki&view=mediawiki&article=Ron_Livingston

Contents
This site may harm your computer.
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.menopause-natural-remedies.com/index.php?q=Ron_Livingston

Europe train: Channel tunnel and eurostar tunnel are here on ...
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
europe-train.net/europe-ticket-train/travel-by-train-in-europe/
london-paris-brussel-amsterdam/channel-tunnel-general-informations/
europe-ticket-train.html?europe-train-tickets=Ron_Livingston

Ron Livingston
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.carstock.ru/Dictionary/Ron_Livingston - Cached

Ron Livingston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Optimized for ...
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
wikipedia.7val.de/wiki/Ron_Livingston

Ron Livingston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
wiki.modis.su/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Livingston.html - Russia

All about defying gravity tv series glued for you by GlueText.com ...
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www-d.gluetext.com/content/d/defying/defying_gravity_tv_series.html


Yahoo has this one that Google doesn't:

Celebrities / Ron Livingston - entertainment news, celebrity ...
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
www.movie-collection.com/celebs/ron-livingston.html - 52k


Bing has this one that Google and Yahoo don't:

Ron Livingston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ron currently resides in Los Angeles with Casting Director Lee Dennison ...
tc2sc.mojolingo.xuite.net/m2m-0000/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Livingston
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Somey
post Sun 6th December 2009, 4:49am
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Moderator's note: This was posted prior to the thread split.

I fear that Mr. Victim's enthusiasm for the idea of a major celebrity lawsuit against Wikipedia/WMF has shifted the focus of this thread away from where it should be. The fact is, if this story breaks out into the mainstream media, it could be at least as big and embarrassing as the Siegenthaler incident, and will essentially bear out the futility of WP users in their (somewhat) tireless efforts to enforce BLP policy, which will effectively be proven to be simply not good enough.

I understand that not all of us here wish to see WP embarrassed in this regard, but it seems fairly clear that what happened here was a lack of central oversight, a complete failure to flag an ongoing problem for what it actually was, and an almost ludicrous failure, if not refusal, to fully (or even "semi-") protect an article that obviously needed it, for a ridiculously long period of time.

I fully expect to see WP'ers (on WP itself) try to hush the whole thing up, minimize it, and/or blame the victim, but like I said before, I don't think we've seen a better example of how the WP system fails due to lack of preventative controls in a long while.

And it's almost Christmas, too!
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taiwopanfob
post Sun 6th December 2009, 6:08am
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QUOTE(Random832 @ Sat 5th December 2009, 8:35pm) *

If whoever is inserting it isn't logged in, then WP doesn't really have anything to reveal - the IP address is out in the open already, so they'll have to go after the ISPs (unfortunately probably open proxies).


Well, no. If I was the lawyer, my demand to the WMF would include the IP numbers making the edits, as well as any links they have to established users or any other identifying data WMF has, plus some kind of certification that the data is accurate and complete (that is, includes any and all edits, including those not currently visible), and all this under penalty of perjury, blah blah.

The next letter would be about removing all the libel completely from view. I'd simply demand the actual edits be physically removed from the databases -- not just a "delete" flag being set, but gone as in gone for good.

QUOTE
It's semi-protected now, anyway.


Yeah! So I can bury a bunch of anti-personnel mines in your front yard, and when you complain, I'll just put a sign up that says "warning! mine field!". Problem solved! (Not.)
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Wiki Witch of the West
post Sun 6th December 2009, 6:32am
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 5th December 2009, 10:49pm) *

That's right...this seemed to ring a bell.
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Sarcasticidealist
post Sun 6th December 2009, 6:48am
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 6th December 2009, 12:49am) *
I understand that not all of us here wish to see WP embarrassed in this regard...
Who do you suppose doesn't? I'm clearly pro-Wikipedia, and I don't want to see section 230 immunity pierced in a way that would jeopardize the WMF's viability, but I would love to see the Foundation get embarrassed enough (during fundraising season, no less!) that it takes action on the BLP front of the kind that The Community is too ponderous and unwieldy to take. I suspect that most of the pro-Wikipedians here agree with me on that, though I stand open to correction.
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Wiki Witch of the West
post Sun 6th December 2009, 6:59am
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QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Sun 6th December 2009, 6:48am) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 6th December 2009, 12:49am) *
I understand that not all of us here wish to see WP embarrassed in this regard...
Who do you suppose doesn't? I'm clearly pro-Wikipedia, and I don't want to see section 230 immunity pierced in a way that would jeopardize the WMF's viability, but I would love to see the Foundation get embarrassed enough (during fundraising season, no less!) that it takes action on the BLP front of the kind that The Community is too ponderous and unwieldy to take. I suspect that most of the pro-Wikipedians here agree with me on that, though I stand open to correction.

Let's hope this opens the community's eyes to the fact that not all BLP vandalism is drive-by. The community has been resistant to implementing safeguards against the long term stuff--sometimes angrily so.

Maybe this would bring new life to dead trees. A generous opt-out really would be a step in the right direction.
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