A message from Ottava Options

[A Horse With No Name]

I (we?) might also consider giving Mr. Ottava another shot here on WR, if he promises to play nice... but it's clearly not in his nature to do so, even when he isn't deliberately trying to get banned.

I would second that emotion. I have been communicating with him via email (obviously) and I find the real Mr. Ottava to be quite a nice person -- very intelligent, funny and insightful. I would hope that you give him another chance here.

And for today's DJ Horsey music videos, here's a great philosophy to live by:

[Peter Damian]

And for today's DJ Horsey music videos, here's a great philosophy to live by:

You never suggested any of these for my Ipod.

I too have always had a soft spot for Ottava. He cares about something other than Star Trek and Manga, he is reasonably well-informed, and he is very diligent and persistent about matters of detail (which was, in the end, his undoing i think).

This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Sun 3rd January 2010, 4:06pm

[Wiki Witch of the West]

Any "overlap" between the accounts is minimal and unintentional. Also, if you check the block logs of all the accounts, I think I've only ever been blocked maybe twice, for like 3RR or something, and haven't been blocked EVER in the last 2 1/2 years. None of my accounts were ever in bad standing, nor were they ever used in any way to contravene policy. Look at the contributions. There's just "no there there" as the saying goes. Think what you want about me, Durova. I have nothing to hide on-Wiki, and nothing to hide off-Wiki either, thanks to first Phil Hall, and now Ottava Rima.

"Minimal and unintentional" was a believable answer when it came from SlimVirgin about a single alternate account she had stopped using years earlier, but only because she never repeated the mistake. You aren't in that position. And please stop touting your block log; my opinion is that you'd probably have been conduct RfC'd and restricted to one account if the community at large were aware of what you've been doing.

You say you've got nothing to hide. So why not go ahead and list all of those previous accounts on your user page? Not just some of them; every one. There are people who'd give you the benefit of the doubt if your actions started matching your words.

[SDJ]

Any "overlap" between the accounts is minimal and unintentional. Also, if you check the block logs of all the accounts, I think I've only ever been blocked maybe twice, for like 3RR or something, and haven't been blocked EVER in the last 2 1/2 years. None of my accounts were ever in bad standing, nor were they ever used in any way to contravene policy. Look at the contributions. There's just "no there there" as the saying goes. Think what you want about me, Durova. I have nothing to hide on-Wiki, and nothing to hide off-Wiki either, thanks to first Phil Hall, and now Ottava Rima.

"Minimal and unintentional" was a believable answer when it came from SlimVirgin about a single alternate account she had stopped using years earlier, but only because she never repeated the mistake. You aren't in that position. And please stop touting your block log; my opinion is that you'd probably have been conduct RfC'd and restricted to one account if the community at large were aware of what you've been doing.

You say you've got nothing to hide. So why not go ahead and list all of those previous accounts on your user page? Not just some of them; every one. There are people who'd give you the benefit of the doubt if your actions started matching your words.

You're a joke. A conduct RfC? For what? I don't care what you find "believable", Durova. I've listed every article I've written on my userpage, and simply looking into the history of those articles tells anyone who's curious, what my past usernames were. If you want to dig into my WikiPast, feel free. You're a "professional" WikiDetective, so have fun at it. There's just not much there to find. If you find anything all that interesting, let me know. Apart from some contributions to a rew relatively high-profile Arbcom cases (one of which saw you lose your tools, which explains your current nonsense here) that involved users I respected, I'm not all that interesting to those of your ilk.

This post has been edited by SDJ: Sun 3rd January 2010, 5:05pm

[SDJ]

I've listed all my previous accounts, as well as a brief explanation of any issues of any note for each. That should make Durova's investigation easier.

[wikiwhistle]

The issue with SDJ wasn't that he started multiple accounts or even the lack of transparency about previous accounts necessarily, it was (and is) the new accounts getting involved in the same disputes with the same people without everyone at the table realizing the history.

Even if he's only known them with one account, he will pester people and slag them off again and again just if they happen to have a different opinion to him. I think that's the real reason he kept having to ditch his accounts and get new ones; because he kept getting in arguments on wiki and being annoying and obnoxious. Others have agreed with me about him too.

You're a joke. A conduct RfC? For what?

I would contribute to it. You hastle people for no reason, again and again. You are obnoxious and intimidating. You would be o.k. in an RfC now though because people pity you over the Ecoleetage hastle you had- which was probably a normal person snapping at your obnoxious and intimidating behaviour.

[Obesity]

I would contribute to it. You hastle people for no reason, again and again. You are obnoxious and intimidating. You would be o.k. in an RfC now though because people pity you over the Ecoleetage hastle you had- which was probably a normal person snapping at your obnoxious and intimidating behaviour.

Hi Wikiwhistle!!! Where have you bean?

I admit I don't know this SDJ fellow from Adam and have no doubts that he probably acted like a prick at one time or another, but characterizing Horsey's genuinely creepy attempts at real-life harm as "a normal person snapping at your obnoxious and intimidating behaviour" stretches the bounds of credibility.

[Somey]

...You would be o.k. in an RfC now though because people pity you over the Ecoleetage hastle you had- which was probably a normal person snapping at your obnoxious and intimidating behaviour.

What's supposed to have happened was that Mr. SDJ had been asked to co-nominate Ecoleetage (T-C-L-K-R-D) for adminship in September 2008, and may have originally said he would (?), but then declined to do so - at which point Ecoleetage (Mr. Horse) apparently sent him a hostile e-mail, which in turn led Mr. SDJ to oppose his candidacy in the RfA (along with Diligent Terrier (T-C-L-K-R-D) and others), which in turn led Mr. Horse to claim that he had been "Swift Boated," and later make the now-infamous phone call to the principal (IIRC) of the school where Mr. SDJ was (and presumably still is) teaching.

Since we haven't seen the e-mails in question, it's difficult to judge how hostile they actually were and whether Mr. SDJ was overreacting to them (bearing in mind that some people are more sensitive about these things than others). But the fact that the phone call was made appears to not be in dispute.

I will, at least, say that here on WR, Mr. Horse has always been a nice guy and quite congenial (though occasionally a bit sex-obsessed) - I can only assume that the Wikipedia environment (and "community") itself was highly contributory to whatever "non-civil" behavior he showed there, especially since he's far from being the only case we've seen.

[A Horse With No Name]

I will, at least, say that here on WR, Mr. Horse has always been a nice guy and quite congenial (though occasionally a bit sex-obsessed) - I can only assume that the Wikipedia environment (and "community") itself was highly contributory to whatever "non-civil" behavior he showed there, especially since he's far from being the only case we've seen.

While Mr. Horse likes being the center of attention (especially good looking female attention, woo woo!), I need to point out that the starting point of this conversation was a message that Mr. Ottava wished to share with the WR community regarding his particular situation. Changing the subject doesn't really erase the subject -- it is still hanging out there in the balance.

I would like to propose that WR teach Arbcom a lesson and recognize that banning people from a free exchange of conversation and ideas goes against the basic principles of fair play and good behavior. I would hope that Ottava would be welcomed back to WR, albeit with a warning not to get carried away (which happens to the best of us in online forums).

As for Wikipedia, while I prefer to view it as a spectator sport, I would nonetheless invite anyone who wants to participate there to do so.

[Somey]

...I need to point out that the starting point of this conversation was a message that Mr. Ottava wished to share with the WR community regarding his particular situation. Changing the subject doesn't really erase the subject -- it is still hanging out there in the balance.

But it is germane, though - Mr. Ottava's particular situation was that he was blocked for "outing" Mr. SDJ's Unitanode (T-C-L-K-R-D) account as SDJ, when what I'm hearing from Mr. SDJ is that he wasn't really trying to hide the fact that he was SDJ. Mr. Ottava also says there's "evidence the ArbCom has failed to act on" about Mr. SDJ's concurrent use of multiple accounts, and Mr. SDJ is denying that such concurrent use took place or that he was trying to deceive anyone.

We're not going to resolve any of this, since neither of these two are ever going to admit to violations of WP's cornball "policies." I thought it was fairly obvious that Mr. SDJ went against WP:CLEANSTART, but he's denying that - either out-of-hand, or by saying that it doesn't apply because he didn't actually request a name-change. Meanwhile, Mr. Ottava's whole case (if it can be called that) seems to somehow depend on his obtaining general agreement (i.e., "consensus") that Mr. SDJ "socked abusively," and he won't get it - even if he's right, he's just too unpopular.

Last but not least, we can unsuspend Ottava's account here, but I can practically guarantee that about a dozen or so people will probably bait him with some reference to gay marriage, abortion, Barack Obama, socialized medicine, or any number of other things, and he'll take the bait in a Big Way™, and we'll be back to where we were before. Can someone convince us otherwise?

[Malleus]

Last but not least, we can unsuspend Ottava's account here, but I can practically guarantee that about a dozen or so people will probably bait him with some reference to gay marriage, abortion, Barack Obama, socialized medicine, or any number of other things, and he'll take the bait in a Big Way™, and we'll be back to where we were before. Can someone convince us otherwise?

What's the risk? If he does, then you can always ban him again. If he doesn't, no harm done.

[Somey]

What's the risk? If he does, then you can always ban him again. If he doesn't, no harm done.

Well, not everyone enjoys or even tolerates those kinds of arguments - they're distracting, and occasionally can cause long-term bad blood between members, which might easily survive a second Ottavaban.

Nevertheless, we've got at least four people now saying they'd like to see it happen, and of course Ottava is banned from WP now, so I like to think he might appreciate us a wee bit more. I have to defer to the other mods, though - if there's significant objection from them, then it's no-go, I'm afraid.

Also, I'd assume Everyking, SDJ, Nerd, and a few others would object to our unsuspending his account - I'm not sure to what extent yet (SDJ would probably leave altogether, but he's been threatening to do that anyway). In any event, we're certainly not going to ignore them if it's a total dealbreaker for them.

[SDJ]

Don't leave him banned because of me. I know what he'll do if he shows up. Most likely, he'll post my real-life name, and make claims about Risker, myself, Bishonen, and anyone else he can slander. But I'd encourage anyone who listens to his nonsense to look back through all of my contribs (now posted on my talkpage), and compare what you find to what OR claims. I've been a solid (not spectacular) editor, with a tendency to become frustrated and scramble my password. I like a good debate (which is probably what the weak-minded WikiWhistle is calling "hastling" -- someone told me who he was on-wiki, and we had a good content debate at one point), but I tend not to hold grudges, unless someone attacks a WikiFriend (or tries to get me fired). Even then, I'm willing to work with them, once it's water under the bridge. (See my recent interactions with Mattisse.)

The long and the short of it is this: I an neutral about unbanning Ottava from WR. I'm comfortable with who I am (and who I have been) on Wikipedia, and I don't post here often enough for it to really matter all that much WHAT I think about the matter.

If you do, I hope it works out, and that he doesn't revert to his attacking ways.

This post has been edited by SDJ: Mon 4th January 2010, 2:51am

[Wiki Witch of the West]

I've listed all my previous accounts, as well as a brief explanation of any issues of any note for each. That should make Durova's investigation easier.

No you haven't. You're still telling half the truth and calling it the whole truth. And the gratuitous digs you make along the way burn through the goodwill that steps in the right direction might be earning.

Let's cut to the chase: you haven't posted your real name on wiki because as long as you don't, you can dance around the margins of the Foundation privacy policy and stymie discussion about your disruptive behavior.

If you hadn't tried to out Horse on wiki, and if you hadn't come here to debate with him, then your decision in that regard might hold weight. But I've actually never known you to give a full and complete account of your actions. And that cuts into your own credibility when you ask us to believe your version of what happened offsite.

If I've got this wrong then do one of two things: either post all of your previous accounts, or give a credible explanation for why you haven't. Try to avoid talking down to people as you do so.

[thekohser]

...either post all of your previous accounts, or give a credible explanation for why you haven't.

I know from experience, sometimes there's just too many of 'em to remember 'em all!

[Wiki Witch of the West]

...either post all of your previous accounts, or give a credible explanation for why you haven't.

I know from experience, sometimes there's just too many of 'em to remember 'em all!

Once in a while you and I actually agree with each other, Greg.

[SDJ]

I've listed all my previous accounts, as well as a brief explanation of any issues of any note for each. That should make Durova's investigation easier.

No you haven't. You're still telling half the truth and calling it the whole truth. And the gratuitous digs you make along the way burn through the goodwill that steps in the right direction might be earning.

Let's cut to the chase: you haven't posted your real name on wiki because as long as you don't, you can dance around the margins of the Foundation privacy policy and stymie discussion about your disruptive behavior.

If you hadn't tried to out Horse on wiki, and if you hadn't come here to debate with him, then your decision in that regard might hold weight. But I've actually never known you to give a full and complete account of your actions. And that cuts into your own credibility when you ask us to believe your version of what happened offsite.

If I've got this wrong then do one of two things: either post all of your previous accounts, or give a credible explanation for why you haven't. Try to avoid talking down to people as you do so.

Who exactly do you think I am? I posted every single account I've ever ran on the project to my userpage. I explained that the BTT account was what my account that revealed my real-life name was collapsed into. I have edited under no other account names, at any point. I made perhaps a few dozen edits in late 2006 as a DFW-area IP address, but I have no earthly idea how to even figure out what those edits were. I'm really beginning to wonder just exactly what nefarious person people think that I am?

As for "outing" Phil Hall on-Wiki, I think he lost all right to complain about that through you when he posed as a person from Mozambique, who supposedly adopted an AIDS orphan, just to try to get me to support him for adminship. He lost all right to have you proxy a fit of pique for him when he tried to get me fired in real-life over an on-wiki dispute. No, I have no sympathy for "Horsey", nor should anyone who values not being stalked in real life. He is a truly strange person.

[everyking]

Also, I'd assume Everyking, SDJ, Nerd, and a few others would object to our unsuspending his account - I'm not sure to what extent yet (SDJ would probably leave altogether, but he's been threatening to do that anyway). In any event, we're certainly not going to ignore them if it's a total dealbreaker for them.

For the record, yes, I think unbanning him is a terrible idea. He'd just antagonize everyone by spouting inflammatory garbage until he got banned again. But then again, I suppose it is kinda funny to watch him in action, at least for a while.

[Bibi]

For the record, yes, I think unbanning him is a terrible idea. He'd just antagonize everyone by spouting inflammatory garbage until he got banned again.

Someone should start Wikipedia Review Review for persons who have been banned from both Wikipedia and WR. Any list of candidates for that exclusive club ?

[cyofee]

For the record, yes, I think unbanning him is a terrible idea. He'd just antagonize everyone by spouting inflammatory garbage until he got banned again.

Someone should start Wikipedia Review Review for persons who have been banned from both Wikipedia and WR. Any list of candidates for that exclusive club ?

Grawp/Sylar, lolwut/ByAppointmentTo, Blissyu, Ottava, Poetguy and his many accounts, probably some more I can't remember right now.