A message from Ottava Options

[Wiki Witch of the West]

Not heard of most of the lot, but I would pay to listen in to a conversation between Ottava and Grawp. Just imagining it gave me the giggles.

There's the rub, isn't it? The temptation to poke Ottava for a reaction would probably be irresistible for some of the folks here. Ottava has been through the mill recently.

One of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's friends once wrote that he wished Mozart had half the musical talent and twice the skill with people. That's the way I feel about Ottava's editing. He isn't my ideological soulmate, but he really was serious about contributing good content on encyclopedic subjects.

I wouldn't stand in the way of his return here, not that my opinion is likely to count for much. But I kind of feel protective toward the fellow. After all, first he dealt with Geogre socking (which Ottava was very gracious about forgiving and making up), and then SDJ reincarnated and renewed a conflict too. That "oh no, not again" feeling could've worn out the patience of a much thicker skinned person than Ottava.

[Milton Roe]

I wish people would stop this horseshit (as it were) about how so-and-so is really a nice guy In Real Life or that if I hung out such-and-such in a pub and not online, we would get along swimmingly.

If that's an oblique reference to my own occasional post-concluding line, "I'm sure he's a nice guy if you meet him in person," that's normally meant sardonically (i.e., it's the same as saying "you'll probably never meet him in person, so what you're left with is the online version, who is obviously a real jerkwad").

My grandfather used to say about some fellow beaurocrat: "Oh, that's so-and-so. Will Rogers never met him."

[A Horse With No Name]

One of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's friends once wrote that he wished Mozart had half the musical talent and twice the skill with people. That's the way I feel about Ottava's editing.

Actually, I just reviewed the documentary "In Search of Mozart" and I was very surprised to learn that the real Mozart bore absolutely no resemblance to the clown played by Tom Hulce in "Amadeus." Indeed, the real Mozart put up with a lot of crap dumped on him by his father, patrons who didn't pay their bills, rivals who went out of their way to wreck his reputation, and the ages old challenge of making a professional living as a creative artist. He was also a very loving husband and father, an innovative self-promoting producer of musical productions, and a well regarded teacher.

The documentary is now on DVD via Microcinema International. Check it out, it is quite an eye opener and an earful.

[Bibi]

After all, first he dealt with Geogre socking (which Ottava was very gracious about forgiving and making up), and then SDJ reincarnated and renewed a conflict too. That "oh no, not again" feeling could've worn out the patience of a much thicker skinned person than Ottava.

Sorry, if my newbieness is showing, but were George or SDJ/Unitanode significant (or even minor) factors in Ottava being banned from wikipedia ? I looked at the Arbitarion case pages, and don't see much evidence for this meme, apparently being spread by Ottava post-ban. Perhaps, I am missing all the behind-the-scenes shenanigans, but whn it comes to such conspiracy theories, I have always put my faith in Occam and Hanlon's razors.

You do raise a good point about the "temptation to poke [Ottava]" (or, just see the spectacle from the peanut gallery), Durova and I for one am suitably embarrassed about the rubbernecking.

This post has been edited by Bibi: Mon 4th January 2010, 7:25pm

[A Horse With No Name]

I looked at the Arbitarion case pages, and don't see much evidence for this meme, apparently being spread by Ottava post-ban.

The banishment went far beyond the bottom of the barrel -- OR was banned for (among other things) having "insulted other academics and their universities, including those from fields in which Ottava is not an expert."

For the arbitrators who flit in and out of here, can you please point out the WP policy that forbids people from casting doubt on those in the academic world with no direct personal link at all to Wikipedia?

This post has been edited by A Horse With No Name: Mon 4th January 2010, 7:45pm

[Eva Destruction]

For the arbitrators who flit in and out of here, can you please point out the WP policy that forbids people from casting doubt on those in the academic world with no direct personal link at all to Wikipedia?

I believe that's covered by WP:Anything rude said by a buddy of Brad is valid criticism, anything rude said by a non-buddy of Brad is a personal attack. It might not be written down, but it certainly exists; on some days Malleus's talkpage consists of little else.

[Obesity]

For the arbitrators who flit in and out of here, can you please point out the WP policy that forbids people from casting doubt on those in the academic world with no direct personal link at all to Wikipedia?

I believe that's covered by WP:Anything rude said by a buddy of Brad is valid criticism, anything rude said by a non-buddy of Brad is a personal attack. It might not be written down, but it certainly exists; on some days Malleus's talkpage consists of little else.

Who's Brad?

[Malleus]

For the arbitrators who flit in and out of here, can you please point out the WP policy that forbids people from casting doubt on those in the academic world with no direct personal link at all to Wikipedia?

I believe that's covered by WP:Anything rude said by a buddy of Brad is valid criticism, anything rude said by a non-buddy of Brad is a personal attack. It might not be written down, but it certainly exists; on some days Malleus's talkpage consists of little else.

Indeed. I not infrequently feel Brad's cold clammy hand on the back of my neck, just waiting for the opportunity to boot me out the WP door.

[Eva Destruction]

For the arbitrators who flit in and out of here, can you please point out the WP policy that forbids people from casting doubt on those in the academic world with no direct personal link at all to Wikipedia?

I believe that's covered by WP:Anything rude said by a buddy of Brad is valid criticism, anything rude said by a non-buddy of Brad is a personal attack. It might not be written down, but it certainly exists; on some days Malleus's talkpage consists of little else.

Indeed. I not infrequently feel Brad's cold clammy hand on the back of my neck, just waiting for the opportunity to boot me out the WP door.

Brad will no doubt be along shortly to explain at FT2-esque length why it's all a big misunderstanding, but for the record: in my opinion, looking back in five years time Brad's metamorphosis from "last honest member of the inside circle" to "chief goon of the self-appointed Defenders Of The Wiki" will be seen as one of the tipping points that marked Wikipedia's terminal decline into just another social networking site. His hounding and badgering of anyone who dares to question whether "academic merit" and "crowd of children" are compatible, coupled with his remarkable capacity to focus on the motes of those he doesn't like while ignoring the sequoia-size beams of anyone who happens to be on the same side of him on any given issue, is currently one of the more distasteful spectacles on both Wikipedia and WR.

[Malleus]

It occurs to me that in fact that wikipedia desperately needs editors like Ottava, and dare I say even me, to prevent its downward spiral into just another social networking site. What it's certainly not short of is kids playing at being adults so long as everyone is nice to them, as my talk page tends to demonstrate periodically. Like earlier tonight, for instance.

[everyking]

It occurs to me that in fact that wikipedia desperately needs editors like Ottava, and dare I say even me, to prevent its downward spiral into just another social networking site. What it's certainly not short of is kids playing at being adults so long as everyone is nice to them, as my talk page tends to demonstrate periodically. Like earlier tonight, for instance.

How can you expect other people to work in an environment with someone like that? Wikipedia is a collaborative project. Maybe Ottava could contribute if he wasn't allowed to do anything except edit the mainspace, or if he was put on probation with a block for each instance of incivility.

This post has been edited by everyking: Mon 4th January 2010, 9:35pm

[Malleus]

It occurs to me that in fact that wikipedia desperately needs editors like Ottava, and dare I say even me, to prevent its downward spiral into just another social networking site. What it's certainly not short of is kids playing at being adults so long as everyone is nice to them, as my talk page tends to demonstrate periodically. Like earlier tonight, for instance.

How can you expect other people to work in an environment with someone like that? Wikipedia is a collaborative project. Maybe Ottava could contribute if he wasn't allowed to do anything except edit the mainspace, or if he was put on a very strict civility parole.

How can you expect rational adults to work in an environment controlled by hormonal kids? FWIW I was generally quite happy to collaborate with Ottava, and not to when we didn't agree. Easy.

The ones who need to be put on civility parole are those who are so quick to shout "Incivility, burn the witch", at the merest hint of disagrement.

This post has been edited by Malleus: Mon 4th January 2010, 9:37pm

[A Horse With No Name]

How can you expect other people to work in an environment with someone like that? Wikipedia is a collaborative project.

You could ask: how can you expect other people to work in an environment with someone like Moreschi, who openly violated WP:HARASSMENT in outing Ottava yet received no punishment whatsoever, even though policy clearly states that what he did was grounds for being blocked?

If you pick and choose which people you like and don't, which policies you will enforce or not, then you have chaos. And that is what WP has.

[Malleus]

If you pick and choose which people you like and don't, which policies you will enforce or not, then you have chaos. And that is what WP has.

It's not even chaos, it's corruption.

This post has been edited by Malleus: Mon 4th January 2010, 9:39pm

[RMHED]

If you pick and choose which people you like and don't, which policies you will enforce or not, then you have chaos. And that is what WP has.

It's not even chaos, it's corruption.

At least corrupt politicians get a nice backhander, what do corrupt Wikipedians get?

[Malleus]

If you pick and choose which people you like and don't, which policies you will enforce or not, then you have chaos. And that is what WP has.

It's not even chaos, it's corruption.

At least corrupt politicians get a nice backhander, what do corrupt Wikipedians get?

They get the secret pleasure of being able to censure whoever they take a dislike to, while pretending that right is on their side. A small thing, I know, but they're small people.

This post has been edited by Malleus: Mon 4th January 2010, 9:49pm

[RMHED]

If you pick and choose which people you like and don't, which policies you will enforce or not, then you have chaos. And that is what WP has.

It's not even chaos, it's corruption.

At least corrupt politicians get a nice backhander, what do corrupt Wikipedians get?

They get the secret pleasure of being able to censure whoever they take a dislike to, while pretending that right is on their side. A small thing, I know, but they're small people.

Right is always on the side of the bullshitters, look they can link to policy pages and snarky essays and everything! How can one argue with such profundity?

[Eva Destruction]

You could ask: how can you expect other people to work in an environment with someone like Moreschi, who openly violated WP:HARASSMENT in outing Ottava yet received no punishment whatsoever, even though policy clearly states that what he did was grounds for being blocked?

Honestly, Horsey, are you not reading?

I believe that's covered by WP:Anything rude said by a buddy of Brad is valid criticism, anything rude said by a non-buddy of Brad is a personal attack.

[SB_Johnny]

I think it would be worth a shot letting Ottava post here again. At least now he has war stories, supporters, and such. And seems to be following along anyway, of course.

Tossing him in the tarpit with SDJ could even be worthy of popcorn.

[Kelly Martin]

How can you expect other people to work in an environment with someone like that?

The way it's been done for centuries: you get them a manager/assistant/secretary, who ensures that they get what they need and that other people leave them alone.

How can you expect rational adults to work in an environment controlled by hormonal kids? FWIW I was generally quite happy to collaborate with Ottava, and not to when we didn't agree. Easy.

The ones who need to be put on civility parole are those who are so quick to shout "Incivility, burn the witch", at the merest hint of disagrement.

Wikipedia is now full of people who have a visceral need to win at any cost. When that mindset rules, it's impossible to "agree to disagree" or to walk away from a fight.

Of course, this is largely a consequence of the fact that the site is overrun by teenaged boys, who are programmed by their hormones to fight instead of talk. The fact that most of them are wimps doesn't dissipate the hormonal drive.