Jimbo calls for global ban on Thekohser, and his bidding is done Options

[thekohser]

For those who are still fitting the puzzle pieces together, a good question is...

Who deleted this image, which used to adorn my WMF Board of Trustees election candidate page?

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...h=-1&tagfilter=

Herbythyme. He's decided it's "‎Off topic for Meta/Unlicensed".

If the image was "off topic", why did it persist for nearly 10 months on a page that was viewed over 20,000 times?

This would be a good spot for Abd to give his view of matters, how Herbythyme is conflicted, carrying out a personal vendetta, but I should restrain myself from calling Herby a moron, because that will just upset him.

I also contend that the image was not "Unlicensed", but I can't argue to that point, what with the image being deleted.

On Herby's user page on Meta, he says:

"I have a major failing - I'm human, I make mistakes, when I do point them out to me please, thanks."

Perhaps some brave soul could point this one out to him, as well as help him punctuate the sentence on his user page, so that it's more coherent.

This post has been edited by thekohser: Wed 2nd June 2010, 12:26am

[thekohser]

Perhaps some brave soul could point this one out to him, as well as help him punctuate the sentence on his user page, so that it's more coherent.

Well, one out of two ain't bad. Thanks, MZ.

[Abd]

On Herby's user page on Meta, he says:

"I have a major failing - I'm human, I make mistakes, when I do point them out to me please, thanks."

Perhaps some brave soul could point this one out to him, as well as help him punctuate the sentence on his user page, so that it's more coherent.

That sentence needs much more than punctuation. If I had the slightest hope that he'd get it, I'd point out:

Okay, you have a major failing, almost certainly. But you did not say what it is.

Being human is not a failing.

And mistakes aren't failings either, if we learn from them. Indeed, making mistakes can be the fastest way to learn, and a wiki is perfect for that, because it can all be fixed.

So what's the major failing? Could it have anything to do with pursuing what certainly looks like a vendetta against Greg Kohs?

[Abd]

Well, one out of two ain't bad. Thanks, MZ.

Yeah, I'm cheering. Really, that deletion was stupid and vindictive. Didn't he look at "where used"? Herby is utterly unqualified to be an admin, unless we fix the adminship system so that all he can do is use a mop on uncontroversial stuff. He might screw up even that though.

I've been getting ideas, discussing adminship on enwiki-l. But that's for another day.

Greg, I fully understand why you'd not want to make any special agreements to secure an unblock at Wikiversity, because it appears you didn't do anything wrong. I can understand why you would expect some upstanding admin to unblock you on the sheer justice of it.

But I'm not an administrator, and if I become one, I'll be on probation, and my own view of adminship is not as becoming some kind of avenging angel. I can probably help you much better as an ordinary editor, and if ordinary editors realized the power they have and used it, admin abuse would be a thing of the past. But they don't, so abusive admins still have power.

Nevertheless, what I'd do even as an admin is the same as what I'd do -- and will eventually do if someone doesn't beat me to it -- as an ordinary editor, i.e., negotiate consensus. If I can do that, who actually unblocks doesn't matter, and that should be true for any administrative action. As a new editor there, though, I need to lay a foundation with the community. There are others in a position to directly unblock, and one may eventually come to that. If you have actually managed to alienate all the admins, well, that's hard to recover from. There are a lot of inactive admins on WV.

I very much appreciate it when an admin reading here notices a situation like that and does something about it. MZM was simple and clear. Yay!!!

[Moulton]

Wikipedia doesn't do Due Process.

And Wikiversity doesn't do Justice.

And nobody does Ethics.

This post has been edited by Moulton: Wed 2nd June 2010, 10:22am

[CharlotteWebb]

Wikipedia doesn't do Due Process.

And Wikiversity doesn't do Justice.

And nobody does Ethics.

Ok, we get it.

[thekohser]

Well, not only is my image not restored (yet), but Herby is looking for an apology for a related affront to his practice of deleting images upon request, but leaving no clue that the image's deletion was requested.

Meanwhile, perhaps someone could ask Herby what he thinks of the following non-deleted images stored on Wikimedia/Meta:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aus_img_small.jpg
(A very similar "promotional" pose as mine)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gumax-3-2-1.png
(Another seemingly "promotional" image)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kennis..._serverroom.jpg
(Another seemingly "promotional" image)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Popedotting4.gif
(A strangely "promotional" image)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Promotional_maid.jpg
(A literally "promotional" image)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikima...medians_-_2.jpg
(A "promotional" image for Dell Computer)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikia_Girl_9.jpg
(A "Wikia girl"? Actually, please don't delete that one. Me likey.)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikia_Party_guests.jpg
(A "promotional" image for Wikia)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jimbo_...resentation.jpg
(The granddaddy of all "promotional" images)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta...!Angela.jpg
(NSFW - That's Angela??)


Now, Herbythyme has assured us, he "have do nothing more or less than I would do to such an image wherever/whenever I found it." Somebody point him to this list, and then let's see whether Herby is a man of his word or not.

[thekohser]

Greg, I fully understand why you'd not want to make any special agreements to secure an unblock at Wikiversity, because it appears you didn't do anything wrong. I can understand why you would expect some upstanding admin to unblock you on the sheer justice of it.

Oh, yes. Tell me more. Tell me more!

[Abd]

Well, not only is my image not restored (yet), but Herby is looking for an apology for a related affront to his practice of deleting images upon request, but leaving no clue that the image's deletion was requested.

Aw, quit it! Herby's a jerk, no doubt about it, and seems utterly unqualified to be an administrator, doesn't know how to back off and at least appear neutral! So what else is new?

Perhaps the user emailed him! Or he's blowing smoke. To address stuff like this takes time, Greg, you should know that. Otherwise those who address it become quite like the abusive admins. Sure, this time the cause might be noble. But one gets in the habit....

[Abd]

Greg, I fully understand why you'd not want to make any special agreements to secure an unblock at Wikiversity, because it appears you didn't do anything wrong. I can understand why you would expect some upstanding admin to unblock you on the sheer justice of it.

Oh, yes. Tell me more. Tell me more!

Okay, what else do you want confirmation on?

Wikiversity is a few breaths short of dead. The active admins are very few, no bureaucrat seems to be active enough to notice the requests for custodianship/bureaucratship that have been outstanding for months. Jimbo really whacked it hard in March. But it's been weak for a long time, and maybe the Moulton affair earlier sapped some of the spirit of the place. I'm sure it didn't help. Wiki people tend to strongly dislike being bossed around. Most just go away.

So, who, specifically, would you suggest might unblock you? My goal would be to get Adambro to do it, if possible. You never know. But I'm not ready to try. Discretion is the better part of valor, eh? Later, maybe. Time wounds all heels. Or is that wheels all hounds? Or something like that?

[Moulton]

Wikiversity is a few breaths short of dead. The active admins are very few, no bureaucrat seems to be active enough to notice the requests for custodianship/bureaucratship that have been outstanding for months. Jimbo really whacked it hard in March. But it's been weak for a long time, and maybe the Moulton affair earlier sapped some of the spirit of the place. I'm sure it didn't help. Wiki people tend to strongly dislike being bossed around. Most just go away.

Yes, Jimbo, Cary, JzG, IDCab, et al dealt it a sequence of death blows over the past two years. And yes, people found it easier to migrate away from WMF than to waste their time fighting with Jimbo.

[Moulton]

Am I seriously still blocked on English Wikiversity? Not only that -- but no e-mail access rights, no Talk page rights, and I can't edit my User page to look the way I want it to?

Does Adambro run that joint? Wikiversity really has a problem.

Adambro is an eccentric 22 year old college student. He's eminently qualified by wikimedia standards to lord over learning projects and decide what type of porn is the most educational for children.

I wish he would actually adambrate or adumbrate or whatever those standards, because I can't find them anywhere. I suppose you just have to know it when you see it.

I now have enough evidence to adumbrate Adambro's current policies and practices regarding acceptable content on Wikiversity.

As of today, he is no longer executing 1-year rangeblocks on 32,000 addresses at a clip.

This is his new practice, as of this morning:

1. He now only blocks a single IP at a time, and for just a week.

2. He quickly reverts any edits by the blocked IP, putting a ludicrously specious reason in the blocking log.

3. He semi-protects the page edited by the blocked IP.

His intention, near as I can tell, is to systematically deny the rights of his fellow scholars at WV the freedom to peaceably assemble and study the subjects of their choice with the collaborating scholars of their choice.

In this manner, he is systematically disabling Wikiversity and rendering it dysfunctional and unusable as a collegial and congenial learning community of collaborating scholars.

I reckon the likely result of this clearly visible policy and practice will be to drive veteran scholars like Geoff Plourde, PrivateMusings, JWSchmidt, and Abd away from Wikiversity and over to alternate venues like NetKnowledge, where they will not be encumbered and impeded by Adambro's oppressive thumb.

[Abd]

Wikiversity is a few breaths short of dead. The active admins are very few, no bureaucrat seems to be active enough to notice the requests for custodianship/bureaucratship that have been outstanding for months. Jimbo really whacked it hard in March. But it's been weak for a long time, and maybe the Moulton affair earlier sapped some of the spirit of the place. I'm sure it didn't help. Wiki people tend to strongly dislike being bossed around. Most just go away.

Yes, Jimbo, Cary, JzG, IDCab, et al dealt it a sequence of death blows over the past two years. And yes, people found it easier to migrate away from WMF than to waste their time fighting with Jimbo.

Just to follow up, I requested crat action at meta and it was quickly done. While a great deal of damage was done, and it will take time to recover, I don't think these were "death blows." Maybe I'm wrong, but ... I see an open path, and I'm taking it, seeing where it leads. And I seem to be finding support in that. The hardest part, now, is the flopping about some of the casualties demanding immediate justice. Not the ones who went away, but those who continue hanging about complaining about how Terrible it all was, but don't seem to be terribly willing to rebuild in the right way.

[Abd]

Am I seriously still blocked on English Wikiversity? Not only that -- but no e-mail access rights, no Talk page rights, and I can't edit my User page to look the way I want it to?

Does Adambro run that joint? Wikiversity really has a problem.

Adambro is an eccentric 22 year old college student. He's eminently qualified by wikimedia standards to lord over learning projects and decide what type of porn is the most educational for children.

I wish he would actually adambrate or adumbrate or whatever those standards, because I can't find them anywhere. I suppose you just have to know it when you see it.

I now have enough evidence to adumbrate Adambro's current policies and practices regarding acceptable content on Wikiversity.

As of today, he is no longer executing 1-year rangeblocks on 32,000 addresses at a clip.

This is his new practice, as of this morning:

1. He now only blocks a single IP at a time, and for just a week.

2. He quickly reverts any edits by the blocked IP, putting a ludicrously specious reason in the blocking log.

3. He semi-protects the page edited by the blocked IP.

His intention, near as I can tell, is to systematically deny the rights of his fellow scholars at WV the freedom to peaceably assemble and study the subjects of their choice with the collaborating scholars of their choice.

No, he's simply, now, taking minimal action to enforce what he believes to be a ban, which is a somewhat reasonable belief. He's willing to allow due process to truly find out if there is a ban or not, so he's actually, where it counts, on the right side.

He's not wheel-warring, and I won't tempt him into it. His range block was excessive, I reversed it, and he backed off. If however, you continue pushing it, I'll point out that I won't wheel-war myself, and you may convince someone else to go ahead and range-block, and I'd be powerless to fix that directly.

His lesser actions are within his normal rights and responsibilities and discretion.

If disruption continues -- which means disregard for due process and community rights (and wiki due process includes wide admin discretion, short-term) -- then I will start to move for more effective and less disruptive means of dealing with it, that might even make the "disruption" useful. Moulton, you are succeeding in convincing most of those who would be your friends that the block should remain.

In this manner, he is systematically disabling Wikiversity and rendering it dysfunctional and unusable as a collegial and congenial learning community of collaborating scholars.

That's a rather narrow view, Moulton. He's just continuing, to some degree, the status quo, and is being relatively restrained. He is certainly not increasing disability or dysfunction, and by being willing to consider such things as the unblock of Thekohser and perhaps even you -- unless you continue as you have been acting -- he's becoming part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. If you don't see him as an improvement over certain others, well, I can only shake my head in wonder.

I reckon the likely result of this clearly visible policy and practice will be to drive veteran scholars like Geoff Plourde, PrivateMusings, JWSchmidt, and Abd away from Wikiversity and over to alternate venues like NetKnowledge, where they will not be encumbered and impeded by Adambro's oppressive thumb.

Ah, preposterous! Adambro is not creating new damage, he is taking actions within what is reasonable, given all the preconditions. It is not him who is stopping you from contributing to Wikiversity, it's the adversarial relationship between you and "those on high," which is then transferred to anyone you see as cooperating with them. And you've been told this for something approaching two years, and those who attempted, in the past, to help resolve this situation, frequently ended up with egg on their face.

Adambro isn't even close to driving me away, I see him as welcoming. As to Netknowledge, great! The more the merrier. Diversity is essential to academic freedom and depth.

[Moulton]

Wikiversity is a few breaths short of dead. The active admins are very few, no bureaucrat seems to be active enough to notice the requests for custodianship/bureaucratship that have been outstanding for months. Jimbo really whacked it hard in March. But it's been weak for a long time, and maybe the Moulton affair earlier sapped some of the spirit of the place. I'm sure it didn't help. Wiki people tend to strongly dislike being bossed around. Most just go away.

Yes, Jimbo, Cary, JzG, IDCab, et al dealt it a sequence of death blows over the past two years. And yes, people found it easier to migrate away from WMF than to waste their time fighting with Jimbo.

Just to follow up, I requested crat action at meta and it was quickly done. While a great deal of damage was done, and it will take time to recover, I don't think these were "death blows." Maybe I'm wrong, but ... I see an open path, and I'm taking it, seeing where it leads. And I seem to be finding support in that. The hardest part, now, is the flopping about some of the casualties demanding immediate justice. Not the ones who went away, but those who continue hanging about complaining about how Terrible it all was, but don't seem to be terribly willing to rebuild in the right way.

I missed that. What action did you request, of whom, and who executed it? The last thing I saw was Mike.lifeguard giving you the runaround regarding Jimbo's edict to keep Greg's SUL globally locked.

Anyway, here we are, two prophets, one predicting a slow agonizing death and another holding out a glimmer of hope to save the dying patient.

I dunno what your imagined treatment regime is, but everything I've tried turned out to be iatrogenic.

How does that mantra go?

"No peace, no justice."

Or is it: "If you want peace, work for justice."

[Abd]

Wikiversity is a few breaths short of dead. The active admins are very few, no bureaucrat seems to be active enough to notice the requests for custodianship/bureaucratship that have been outstanding for months. Jimbo really whacked it hard in March. But it's been weak for a long time, and maybe the Moulton affair earlier sapped some of the spirit of the place. I'm sure it didn't help. Wiki people tend to strongly dislike being bossed around. Most just go away.

Yes, Jimbo, Cary, JzG, IDCab, et al dealt it a sequence of death blows over the past two years. And yes, people found it easier to migrate away from WMF than to waste their time fighting with Jimbo.

Just to follow up, I requested crat action at meta and it was quickly done. While a great deal of damage was done, and it will take time to recover, I don't think these were "death blows." Maybe I'm wrong, but ... I see an open path, and I'm taking it, seeing where it leads. And I seem to be finding support in that. The hardest part, now, is the flopping about some of the casualties demanding immediate justice. Not the ones who went away, but those who continue hanging about complaining about how Terrible it all was, but don't seem to be terribly willing to rebuild in the right way.

I missed that. What action did you request, of whom, and who executed it? The last thing I saw was Mike.lifeguard giving you the runaround regarding Jimbo's edict to keep Greg's SUL globally locked.

I requested steward action to create a new crat at Wikiversity to break the logjam. And it was immediately granted, and that, Moulton, is how I came to be a probationary admin there, and to be seen as being usefully skillful, which is about what it takes to be an admin at Wikiversity, if I don't blow it by trying to resolve this long term controversy.

Anyway, here we are, two prophets, one predicting a slow agonizing death and another holding out a glimmer of hope to save the dying patient.

No, I'm not a prophet except in one sense, which I won't go into. I'm a physician, rather, trying to save the patient with means at my disposal. What would you suggest for a physician with a seriously ill patient? To make the "slow agonizing death" prediction and to abandon efforts or even hasten the death? Remind me not to ask them to call you if I'm seriously ill....

I dunno what your imagined treatment regime is, but everything I've tried turned out to be iatrogenic.

How does that mantra go?

"No peace, no justice."

Or is it: "If you want peace, work for justice."

Of course. To maintain peace, justice must be maintained. But when peace is disturbed and there is no justice, justice becomes impossible until peace is restored. That can sometimes involve addressing certain immediate and ongoing injustices, but if there is no general seeking of peace, even that can be impossible. I already wrote about this at length. Did you read it?

[Moulton]

Adambro's intention, near as I can tell, is to systematically deny the rights of his fellow scholars at WV the freedom to peaceably assemble and study the subjects of their choice with the collaborating scholars of their choice.

No, he's simply, now, taking minimal action to enforce what he believes to be a ban, which is a somewhat reasonable belief. He's willing to allow due process to truly find out if there is a ban or not, so he's actually, where it counts, on the right side.

It's a reasonable belief for someone who is living on Cloud Cuckoo Land. It's not a reasonable belief for anyone who is a well-grounded scholar.

He's not wheel-warring, and I won't tempt him into it. His range block was excessive, I reversed it, and he backed off. If however, you continue pushing it, I'll point out that I won't wheel-war myself, and you may convince someone else to go ahead and range-block, and I'd be powerless to fix that directly.

I dunno who taught him those obscure technical range blocks. It would have had to be Ottava or one of the two Mikes. No one else would have known the parameters without taking the time to do the research. And we all know that Adam never does any research, full stop.

His lesser actions are within his normal rights and responsibilities and discretion.

Baloney. He demonstrating why JWSchmidt was right to question his qualifications.

If disruption continues -- which means disregard for due process and community rights (and wiki due process includes wide admin discretion, short-term) -- then I will start to move for more effective and less disruptive means of dealing with it, that might even make the "disruption" useful. Moulton, you are succeeding in convincing most of those who would be your friends that the block should remain.

You know my attitude about the role of blocks and bans in the context of an authentic learning community.

If people there insist on adopting that anachronistic governance model and practice, then they necessarily abdicate any credible claim to being an authentic learning community, full stop. (And doubly so if they don't even have a concept of due process, evidence-based reasoning, etc.)

In this manner, he is systematically disabling Wikiversity and rendering it dysfunctional and unusable as a collegial and congenial learning community of collaborating scholars.

That's a rather narrow view, Moulton. He's just continuing, to some degree, the status quo, and is being relatively restrained. He is certainly not increasing disability or dysfunction, and by being willing to consider such things as the unblock of Thekohser and perhaps even you -- unless you continue as you have been acting -- he's becoming part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. If you don't see him as an improvement over certain others, well, I can only shake my head in wonder.

The status quo is that the thugs who invaded WV two years ago morphed it into a post-modern theater of the absurd. I haven't seen a shred of evidence that Javert is anywhere close to having the epiphany that would avert his suicide at the end of the drama.

I reckon the likely result of this clearly visible policy and practice will be to drive veteran scholars like Geoff Plourde, PrivateMusings, JWSchmidt, and Abd away from Wikiversity and over to alternate venues like NetKnowledge, where they will not be encumbered and impeded by Adambro's oppressive thumb.

Ah, preposterous! Adambro is not creating new damage, he is taking actions within what is reasonable, given all the preconditions. It is not him who is stopping you from contributing to Wikiversity, it's the adversarial relationship between you and "those on high," which is then transferred to anyone you see as cooperating with them. And you've been told this for something approaching two years, and those who attempted, in the past, to help resolve this situation, frequently ended up with egg on their face.

Like Richard Daley said, "Adambro isn't there to cause disorder. Adambro is there to preserve disorder."

Adambro isn't even close to driving me away, I see him as welcoming. As to Netknowledge, great! The more the merrier. Diversity is essential to academic freedom and depth.

Did you just jump aboard Cloud Cuckoo Land, too?

[thekohser]

Abd, could you give me a brief run-down on where I stand on Wikimedia projects? When I attempt on Tuesday to continue some of my good work on Wikisource, what is going to happen when I try to sign in with my account?

It appears that the going policy is "Jimbo banned him from all WMF projects."

That's not something that will stand, as far as I'm concerned... because I'm clearly not banned -- I've been quite active on several WMF projects over the past month, which has unnecessarily occupied a bunch of time of people slavishly trying to enforce an unenforceable rule. Why are they so afraid of what my "named" account might do, might say?

[Moulton]

It's pretty clear that people like Mike.lifeguard and MaxSem were executing these global SUL locks at Jimbo's express direction, without being concerned about the sentiments of the communities on the various projects. There was no doubt that these were out-of-process usurpations of local governance and local autonomy, unencumbered by such niceties as Due Process, Evidence Based Reasoning, etc. In the recent case, it clearly sundered the already fragile community at Wikiversity. It's unclear what the repercussions may have been on other projects.

[Abd]

Abd, could you give me a brief run-down on where I stand on Wikimedia projects? When I attempt on Tuesday to continue some of my good work on Wikisource, what is going to happen when I try to sign in with my account?

It appears that the going policy is "Jimbo banned him from all WMF projects."

That's not something that will stand, as far as I'm concerned... because I'm clearly not banned -- I've been quite active on several WMF projects over the past month, which has unnecessarily occupied a bunch of time of people slavishly trying to enforce an unenforceable rule. Why are they so afraid of what my "named" account might do, might say?

Your SUL account Thekohser is globally locked. This means that, in spite of the fact that you have been unblocked on various wikis, you cannot log in. All WMF wikis are linked in this way, they all use the same global blacklist and global lock process. Interestingly, there are local whitelists and a local block whitelist -- global blocks are IP ranges -- but no local unlock list.

On wikiversity, if you will create an account with a non-obvious name, if you can manage this, and if you tell me (send me email or PM me here), I will block it but allow Talk page access and will post to the Talk page explaining, at that point, who you are and what is being done, and that it is being done with consensus at Wikiversity.

Don't use the account, just register it! -- until I've blocked it, leaving the Talk page open. By the way, this very action will show cooperation.

Trying to get a steward to unlock is more fuss than may be necessary at this point. If we are able to negotiate unblock on Wikiversity, then the basis will exist to dump the global lock, and I think it will fly. Overall, I believe, the community doesn't like meta interference in local projects, they see the role of stewards as to serve and assist, not to control.

The WMF is represented by staff accounts, and my opinion is that the WMF should never direct stewards, who serve the community, unless they do so publicly.

I suspect that we have is a single steward -- it is not clear that there is more than that -- who believes that he is serving the projects by serving his idea of what Jimbo would want. Right now, I prefer to avoid a direct confrontation with that. He's not the problem, in the end, the problem is always lack of clear, efficient, and fair process.