The assault on Wiki-Porn: A hint of motive? Options

[Kelly Martin]

Or, if Kelly will allow me to riff on her trademarked phrase: I think the day has been hastened.

I remain unconvinced of that. The death of King Jimmy will certainly change things in WIkiland, but improve them? Hard to say. Much depends on who moves into the power vacuum his decoronation will create, assuming that it, in fact, happens. Also, do not for a moment assume that even if he is decoronated on Commons, or even on every project except the English Wikipedia, that he'll give up his Founder privileges on the English Wikipedia without a separate fight.

[TungstenCarbide]

Or, if Kelly will allow me to riff on her trademarked phrase: I think the day has been hastened.

I remain unconvinced of that. The death of King Jimmy will certainly change things in WIkiland, but improve them? Hard to say. Much depends on who moves into the power vacuum his decoronation will create, assuming that it, in fact, happens. Also, do not for a moment assume that even if he is decoronated on Commons, or even on every project except the English Wikipedia, that he'll give up his Founder privileges on the English Wikipedia without a separate fight.

I don't think Jimbo has much power these days, not like he used to. He can even manage to delete porn and make it stick.

[Kelly Martin]

I don't think Jimbo has much power these days, not like he used to. He can even manage to delete porn and make it stick.

While he doesn't have much power himself, he also prevents anyone else from making any sort of claim of power. His removal would create a power vacuum, or at least remove the main impediment for someone more capable of leadership than Jimbo (which would be nearly anyone) exercising that capability.

[Moulton]

I don't think Jimbo has much power these days, not like he used to. He can't even manage to delete porn and make it stick.

We need a time graph of the number of deletions that remain deleted. Does anyone here know how to construct such a graph?

[Milton Roe]

Or, if Kelly will allow me to riff on her trademarked phrase: I think the day has been hastened.

I remain unconvinced of that. The death of King Jimmy will certainly change things in WIkiland, but improve them? Hard to say. Much depends on who moves into the power vacuum his decoronation will create, assuming that it, in fact, happens. Also, do not for a moment assume that even if he is decoronated on Commons, or even on every project except the English Wikipedia, that he'll give up his Founder privileges on the English Wikipedia without a separate fight.

I don't think Jimbo has much power these days, not like he used to. He can even manage to delete porn and make it stick.

Damn, he got rid of the drawing of Sainte Thérèse, the Disrobed Carmelite. I thought that one came close to being art.

Why is it that we have Jimbo going around deleting erotica and satyrica (I dunno if I'd call that drawing "porn"-- were any of you turned on by it??) And nobody else can seem to do it? The real problem is that Jimbo is here being given credit for doing what the dysfunctional system he set up, cannot do. So he's cleaning up a trash dump he helped construct, and formerly helped block anybody from fixing. And it's the closest he's come to getting the axe, since he's fixed things so everybody is so used to getting their way.



Man, things are screwed up on WP.

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

Wasn't Sanger collecting a list of images to hand out to reporters? I'll bet Wales got a copy of that list (from a reporter perhaps), and I'll further bet that the St. Therese image was on that list.

Geez. How can Jimbo say that he's successfully averted a media crisis when there's so much still there?

He is saying that we have successful crated a meme ... sold the media the idea ... that we fix it.

Fixing this and making the media and public believe they have fixed things are different. Its is like a Queen or President turning up at a disaster site so that the nation knows he is Doing Something and goes back to sleep.


It is interesting to note Mike Godwin's and JzG comments. It is all classic "folk devil and moral panic" on both sides, with a lashing of cult dynamics ... hyserically isn't the 'Wikipedia folk devil' TheKohser gets blamed for it though it was none of his doing ... who started the Ethical Breaching Experiment?

Lot of momentum around the idea", is currently most persistently promoted by the same precise individual who began the "ethical breaching experiment" project on the English Wikiversity, and created the previous to last wiki-fracas.

The same applied to Wikiversity, which was acting as a training ground for abuse of Wikimedia foundation projects. The truly staggering thing there is that the existing admins on Wikiversity did not instantly ban those who were trying to use it in that way.

Wikimedia projects are first, last, and everything in between, about the Foundation's mission. Anything which subverts that can be dome somewhere else, on someone else's dime, thanks all the same.

JzG 18:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Once this discussion happens, it would not surprise me if the result turned out to be that some of the material deleted by Jimmy will be restored by the community -- probably with Jimmy's approval in many cases.

I don't see anyone congratulating Fox except Fox and the usual folks aimed at destroying us anway.

Mike Godwin

Like a cult, any criticism is polarised into a naive immature dialectic satisfying for naive minds ... the noble faithful versus the evil destroyers of the faith.

Look at the language, it is even religious ... the Alpha and Omega ... "Wikimedia projects are first, last, and everything in between."

Geez, I never realise this guy was such a jerk off. Like a Saul to his Christ Jimmy, he even turns the acknowledgement back onto the God King

To the extent that Jimmy's intervention has triggered a healthy debate about
policy, I think the powers he used ... are justified.

Christ Jimmy, the forbearing god, intervenes to save them from external threat and coercion!!!

Meanwhile, dgerard works up a meme to destroy Larry "Judas" Sanger's reputation ... and gives form to the idea that his public concern was an act of jealous vengeance ...like any apostate cult exiter.

all-but-collapse of Citizendium: now has less contributors or actitvity than *Conservapedia*. And a lot of that was due to hasty interventions from the founder. (Leading to this final last-ditch attempt to drum up interest by attacking Wikipedia.)

[Moulton]

It's Armageddon, Ragnarok, and Calgary, all rolled into one.

[everyking]

It seems like a no-brainer--these images are superfluous at best and dangerous at worst, so of course they should be deleted at the first hint of trouble. However, since Jimbo considers me a trouble-maker and troll-enabler, I'm not sure what my support says about him.

[GlassBeadGame]

It seems like a no-brainer--these images are superfluous at best and dangerous at worst, so of course they should be deleted at the first hint of trouble. However, since Jimbo considers me a trouble-maker and troll-enabler, I'm not sure what my support says about him.

It might help if you said the community is flawed, wrong and irresponsible. Coming from you that might actually matter.

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

Of course, if Jimmy goes down, so does Mike Godwin's career. (He wont lose his job, nor will not be able to get work, many that would pay share his ideal with ... but, obviously, there is a mutual interest in public perception of the Wikipedia and Wales and his own financial worth.

Or should I write, "if Jimmy is not successful resurrected from his current grave ... then Godwin's career will poop".

Christ Jimbo is not buried yet. He has not even been cruxified. We are still just doing the 'Stations of the Cross'.

Even if Jimmy was successfully crucified, and the religion suppressed, some Saul would only come along and reinvent it.

Learning form new religions and cults, as fallible as they are, generally the cultic charismatic phase is the best time of itself life ... just look at what the Romans made of a minor and deluded Jewish millenarianist prophet and his cult.

But, for a certain sort of second class with a business mind, these kinds of groups are ladders up which they can climb much further than they could on their own and so they are often used and sustained for the second class of individual's own self-interests ... the Sues, Eriks and Mikes of the world. Part of the sustenance of the cult is the creation and sustenance of an imaginary Pure Noble God Kid Guide ... a Christ archetype in other worlds.

Even though the primarily WASP following probably thinks of itself as being entirely secular, they would seem to be playing out fairly standard Christian archetypes ... including that of the Christian imperial age, e.g. conquering the world with their values and acquiring a large slave caste.

This post has been edited by Cock-up-over-conspiracy: Sun 9th May 2010, 2:42am

[EricBarbour]

It is interesting to note Mike Godwin's and JzG comments. It is all classic "folk devil and moral panic" on both sides, with a lashing of cult dynamics ... hyserically isn't the 'Wikipedia folk devil' TheKohser gets blamed for it though it was none of his doing ...

Give them a few days, they'll figure out a stupid way to blame Greg.

Of course, if Jimmy goes down, so does Mike Godwin's career.

We can only hope, but it's not likely. Mike is a semi-legend in the free-culture crackpot
word, and damaging his fame will take more than the collapse of Wikipedia.

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Sun 9th May 2010, 2:49am

[RDH(Ghost In The Machine)]

Punch, Judy.
Judy, Punch.

It's all for show, Puppets.

[Lar]

(Youtube clip)

I had no idea you were a Marillion fan. That clip fits Jon's post but I think a better Marillion theme song for this whole thing is "Incommunicado" from "Clutching at Straws"

[everyking]

It seems like a no-brainer--these images are superfluous at best and dangerous at worst, so of course they should be deleted at the first hint of trouble. However, since Jimbo considers me a trouble-maker and troll-enabler, I'm not sure what my support says about him.

It might help if you said the community is flawed, wrong and irresponsible. Coming from you that might actually matter.

Any sensible person ought to be able to draw a line here. When Jimbo pops up on other projects to ban someone he doesn't like, or enforce anything related purely to internal wiki affairs, that's completely inappropriate--the community should govern such matters locally. But when he intervenes to take action to avert some kind of PR disaster or legal trouble, well, it's hard to argue with that. If the community doesn't want to deal with such a serious issue, then the community is just wrong--and what's true is still true even when spoken by a liar.

[GlassBeadGame]

It seems like a no-brainer--these images are superfluous at best and dangerous at worst, so of course they should be deleted at the first hint of trouble. However, since Jimbo considers me a trouble-maker and troll-enabler, I'm not sure what my support says about him.

It might help if you said the community is flawed, wrong and irresponsible. Coming from you that might actually matter.

Any sensible person ought to be able to draw a line here. When Jimbo pops up on other projects to ban someone he doesn't like, or enforce anything related purely to internal wiki affairs, that's completely inappropriate--the community should govern such matters locally. But when he intervenes to take action to avert some kind of PR disaster or legal trouble, well, it's hard to argue with that. If the community doesn't want to deal with such a serious issue, then the community is just wrong--and what's true is still true even when spoken by a liar.

But how can you look at this, flagged revisions and just about any significant reform and see that the characteristics and dynamics of the community itself makes it the most reactionary and broken aspect of the libertarian dystopia that WP has arrived at? It is to the point that you don't have to agree on the issues to see how broken it has become.

[anthony]

Wales:

We were about to be smeared in all media as hosting hardcore pornography
and doing nothing about it. Now, the correct storyline is that we are
cleaning up. I'm proud to have made sure that storyline broke the way
it did, and I'm sorry I had to step on some toes to make it happen.

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/195376
Perhaps that explains his choice of images. Wasn't Sanger collecting a list of images to hand out to reporters? I'll bet Wales got a copy of that list (from a reporter perhaps), and I'll further bet that the St. Therese image was on that list.

not bad, Anthony.

Although Jimbo isn't known for his thoughtfulness or deep concentration, I can't believe he's clueless enough to think his deletions will make any difference in the long run. Also, in the past Jimbo hasn't hesitated to de-sysop people for wheel warring, but not this time. There's no way his 'leadership' will stand without whacking a few commons admins. All this suggests that Jimbo had a narrow short term goal.

Wow, he even admits it.

And I deleted some things that I assumed would be undeleted after a
discussion. I wanted us to take an approach that involved first
deleting a lot of borderline things, and then bringing them back after
careful case by case discussions.

That proved to be quite unpopular, and I'm sorry about it.

With the apology immediately followed by:

I'm sorry I acted with such urgency, but I think it was necessary.

How can you be sorry for something that was necessary?

He deletes the controversial images, knowing full well that they'll be undeleted?

If the press lets him get away with this, I'll be...

...well, actually, I'll be unsurprised.

Maybe they were even in on it: "Look Jimbo, we love free speech as much as you do. Our business depends on it. But we can't just let this story go - we'll make too much money by reporting it. So how about you create an even bigger story, by deleting the images, and then we can run that story instead?"

This post has been edited by anthony: Sun 9th May 2010, 4:49pm

[Peter Damian]

How can you be sorry for something that was necessary?

Any position of responsibility involves at some point doing something you are sorry you have to do, but which it is necessary to do. Being sorry is a bit different from 'regretting' something, which can imply that if you had the chance again, you would not do it.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Sun 9th May 2010, 4:41pm

[anthony]

How can you be sorry for something that was necessary?

Any position of responsibility involves at some point doing something you are sorry you have to do, but which it is necessary to do.

You believe that, do you?

[Peter Damian]

How can you be sorry for something that was necessary?

Any position of responsibility involves at some point doing something you are sorry you have to do, but which it is necessary to do.

You believe that, do you?

Not at all. As I said, I believe nothing.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian: Sun 9th May 2010, 4:49pm

[TungstenCarbide]

Wales:

We were about to be smeared in all media as hosting hardcore pornography
and doing nothing about it. Now, the correct storyline is that we are
cleaning up. I'm proud to have made sure that storyline broke the way
it did, and I'm sorry I had to step on some toes to make it happen.

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/195376
Perhaps that explains his choice of images. Wasn't Sanger collecting a list of images to hand out to reporters? I'll bet Wales got a copy of that list (from a reporter perhaps), and I'll further bet that the St. Therese image was on that list.

not bad, Anthony.

Although Jimbo isn't known for his thoughtfulness or deep concentration, I can't believe he's clueless enough to think his deletions will make any difference in the long run. Also, in the past Jimbo hasn't hesitated to de-sysop people for wheel warring, but not this time. There's no way his 'leadership' will stand without whacking a few commons admins. All this suggests that Jimbo had a narrow short term goal.

Wow, he even admits it.

And I deleted some things that I assumed would be undeleted after a
discussion. I wanted us to take an approach that involved first
deleting a lot of borderline things, and then bringing them back after
careful case by case discussions.

That proved to be quite unpopular, and I'm sorry about it.

With the apology immediately followed by:

I'm sorry I acted with such urgency, but I think it was necessary.

How can you be sorry for something that was necessary?

He deletes the controversial images, knowing full well that they'll be undeleted?

If the press lets him get away with this, I'll be...

...well, actually, I'll be unsurprised.

Maybe they were even in on it: "Look Jimbo, we love free speech as much as you do. Our business depends on it. But we can't just let this story go - we'll make too much money by reporting it. So how about you create an even bigger story, by deleting the images, and then we can run that story instead?"

All in all, I think Jimbo played this pretty well. He doesn't need the 'founder' powers that have been removed. He lost them on a point of honor that only the moronic wikipedia crowd would disagree with. He demonstrated that dealing with the worst filth at commons is beyond him, even though he tried his best. He gets to act all righteous and good. So now he basically doesn't need to deal with this shit any more. Any criticism about smut at Wikipedia and Jimbo is off the hook.

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Mon 10th May 2010, 1:16am