The Wikipedia Review: A forum for discussion and criticism of Wikipedia
Wikipedia Review Op-Ed Pages

Welcome, Guest! ( Log In | Register )

> General Discussion? What's that all about?

This subforum is for general discussion of Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects. For a glossary of terms frequently used in such discussions, please refer to Wikipedia:Glossary. For a glossary of musical terms, see here. Other useful links:

Akahele.orgWikipedia-WatchWikitruthWP:ANWikiEN-L/Foundation-L (mailing lists) • Citizendium forums

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Larry Sanger: "Deconstructing Wikipedia", Reed College Commencement speaker
Larry Sanger
post Wed 12th May 2010, 2:09am
Post #1


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun 2nd May 2010, 9:22pm
Member No.: 19,790

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



Just popping in to link to this: http://web.reed.edu/reed_magazine/june2010...edia/index.html
Chris Lydgate, "Deconstructing Wikipedia," from my alumni mag, Reed (College, Portland, Oregon).
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
gomi
post Wed 12th May 2010, 5:28am
Post #2


Member
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,022
Joined: Fri 17th Nov 2006, 6:38pm
Member No.: 565



QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Tue 11th May 2010, 7:09pm) *
Just popping in to link to this: http://web.reed.edu/reed_magazine/june2010...edia/index.html
Chris Lydgate, "Deconstructing Wikipedia," from my alumni mag, Reed (College, Portland, Oregon).

You beat me to it - it just turned up in the mailbox today. I Wonder what dmcdevit (T-C-L-K-R-D) would have to say about it?

Larry leaves out that he is this year's Reed Commencement speaker. Quite an honor.

[Modnote: I split this from another topic and wrote the title.]
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kevin
post Wed 12th May 2010, 6:03am
Post #3


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat 28th Feb 2009, 2:58am
From: Adelaide, Australia
Member No.: 10,522

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE

Since August 2009, biographies of living persons (known as BLPs) are subject to extra scrutiny; changes to these articles must be reviewed by experienced editors before they are made public, and material from dubious sources is forbidden


Pity that the article does not note that this actually never took place.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
privatemusings
post Wed 12th May 2010, 6:49am
Post #4


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat 29th Dec 2007, 4:51pm
Member No.: 4,306

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



there's a mistake about the 'Handel' broo ha ha which is quite serious - the article was never 'feautured' (a process that at the very least is actually pretty hard to get through) - rather it was part of the 'did you know' section of the main page, which doesn't really have a quality bar, but the articles in the area have to be new, or significantly (5 times I think?) expanded.

You could wriggle and say that the Handel article was featured on the mainpage (true, but misleading) - this; 'Wikipedia’s “Feature Article”—the most prominent location on the site' - is just plain wrong unfortunately.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kevin
post Wed 12th May 2010, 7:04am
Post #5


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat 28th Feb 2009, 2:58am
From: Adelaide, Australia
Member No.: 10,522

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(privatemusings @ Wed 12th May 2010, 4:49pm) *

there's a mistake about the 'Handel' broo ha ha which is quite serious - the article was never 'feautured' (a process that at the very least is actually pretty hard to get through) - rather it was part of the 'did you know' section of the main page, which doesn't really have a quality bar, but the articles in the area have to be new, or significantly (5 times I think?) expanded.

You could wriggle and say that the Handel article was featured on the mainpage (true, but misleading) - this; 'Wikipedia’s “Feature Article”—the most prominent location on the site' - is just plain wrong unfortunately.


I saw this as well, but thought the distinction would be lost on the general public. Still, it doesn't say much for the accuracy of the article.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
GlassBeadGame
post Wed 12th May 2010, 3:11pm
Post #6


Dharma Bum
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 7,919
Joined: Sat 17th Feb 2007, 12:55am
From: My name it means nothing. My age it means less. The country I come from is called the Mid-West.
Member No.: 981



You deserve the recognition from Reed. I offer two thoughts on the article.

First, reading this article for made me realize much more clearly the importance of articulating the nature of Bomis. This is not just to get a cheap shot in at Mr. Wales. It has great bearing in establishing you as "co-founder" or even as more properly described as founder of Wikipedia. If Bomis was a respected think tank on applying technology to learning projects then Wales would have a point when he relegates you to the status of mere hired help. But Bomis was in fact a site helping users access soft-core pornography and had no resources, experience or credibility on matters relating to learning projects. In fact its background was nothing but an embarrassment. This turns the tables nicely and far from being the "hired help" you are established as prime mover and animating force. Wales is then seen as a rich guy buying the talent for a vanity project and sticking his name on it. The article is weaker for glossing over Bomis.

Second, as noted above the discussion of BLPs at the end of the article is flawed beyond the acceptable and you really need to publicly reply and correct the impression that the issue of BLPs has been addressed appropriately by WP. It is just the opposite of the Fox article where a claim is made by WP and the writer took the time to check whether it was true or not. I don't want to be too hard on a student publication but it really can't stand.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Larry Sanger
post Wed 12th May 2010, 4:01pm
Post #7


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun 2nd May 2010, 9:22pm
Member No.: 19,790

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 12th May 2010, 11:11am) *

Second, as noted above the discussion of BLPs at the end of the article is flawed beyond the acceptable and you really need to publicly reply and correct the impression that the issue of BLPs has been addressed appropriately by WP. It is just the opposite of the Fox article where a claim is made by WP and the writer took the time to check whether it was true or not. I don't want to be too hard on a student publication but it really can't stand.

It's not a student publication, it's a professionally-edited alumni magazine. FWIW, I thought this was one of the very best articles about the history of Wikipedia that I've ever read, the mistakes at the end notwithstanding.

To be honest, I never followed the BLP stuff, I was very busy with other things at the time. Can you point me to a WR discussion or something else that sums it up? So, Wikipedia announced a stricter approach to BLPs, and they never followed through?

I'd be happy to put you in touch with Chris Lydgate, the editor of Reed Magazine & the author of the article. I'm sure he'll be very interested to hear about this.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ottava
post Wed 12th May 2010, 4:33pm
Post #8


Über Pokemon
********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined: Thu 31st Jul 2008, 6:35pm
Member No.: 7,328

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(gomi @ Wed 12th May 2010, 5:28am) *

Larry leaves out that he is this year's Reed Commencement speaker. Quite an honor.



I've never heard of the school but the Wiki page makes it seem interesting. The question is, did he get an honorary doctorate from the school (like many commencement speakers) and, if so, which subject? Something related to ethics?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
GlassBeadGame
post Wed 12th May 2010, 4:40pm
Post #9


Dharma Bum
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 7,919
Joined: Sat 17th Feb 2007, 12:55am
From: My name it means nothing. My age it means less. The country I come from is called the Mid-West.
Member No.: 981



QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 12th May 2010, 11:33am) *

QUOTE(gomi @ Wed 12th May 2010, 5:28am) *

Larry leaves out that he is this year's Reed Commencement speaker. Quite an honor.



I've never heard of the school but the Wiki page makes it seem interesting. The question is, did he get an honorary doctorate from the school (like many commencement speakers) and, if so, which subject? Something related to ethics?


I haven't looked at the article in a long while but at one time it was the target of a substantial smear campaign. I hope it hasn't, and more important won't again, fall into that state. Maybe it should be protected in anticipation of mischief around Larry's address? I usually don't comment on such internal details but I can see potential trouble here.

QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Wed 12th May 2010, 11:01am) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 12th May 2010, 11:11am) *

Second, as noted above the discussion of BLPs at the end of the article is flawed beyond the acceptable and you really need to publicly reply and correct the impression that the issue of BLPs has been addressed appropriately by WP. It is just the opposite of the Fox article where a claim is made by WP and the writer took the time to check whether it was true or not. I don't want to be too hard on a student publication but it really can't stand.

It's not a student publication, it's a professionally-edited alumni magazine. FWIW, I thought this was one of the very best articles about the history of Wikipedia that I've ever read, the mistakes at the end notwithstanding.

To be honest, I never followed the BLP stuff, I was very busy with other things at the time. Can you point me to a WR discussion or something else that sums it up? So, Wikipedia announced a stricter approach to BLPs, and they never followed through?

I'd be happy to put you in touch with Chris Lydgate, the editor of Reed Magazine & the author of the article. I'm sure he'll be very interested to hear about this.


Finding things around here can be a real pain in the butt. Here is a recent thread on the matter. The problem is that Wales has so often claimed that Flagged Revisions are on there way or even have been implemented that it gets repeated in the media. FR have ran into resistance on WP very similar to the porn clean up. The burden of waiting to see their edits is too great for these entitled editors who feel that lies and defamation borne by BLPs subjects is a fair price for their continued unimpeded freedom to do whatever they want.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ottava
post Wed 12th May 2010, 5:03pm
Post #10


Über Pokemon
********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined: Thu 31st Jul 2008, 6:35pm
Member No.: 7,328

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 12th May 2010, 4:40pm) *

I haven't looked at the article in a long while but at one time it was the target of a substantial smear campaign. I hope it hasn't, and more important won't again, fall into that state. Maybe it should be protected in anticipation of mischief around Larry's address? I usually don't comment on such internal details but I can see potential trouble here.



To be honest, I wanted to seem if it was a legitimate institution. I saw that it was the only undergrad to have a nuclear facility (in the lead) and that was enough to verify it. The amount of regulations you need to go through to have such a thing is something that only a top school with a lot of effort can pass.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
John Limey
post Wed 12th May 2010, 5:24pm
Post #11


Senior Member
****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed 8th Jul 2009, 3:04pm
Member No.: 12,473



QUOTE(privatemusings @ Wed 12th May 2010, 7:49am) *

there's a mistake about the 'Handel' broo ha ha which is quite serious - the article was never 'feautured' (a process that at the very least is actually pretty hard to get through) - rather it was part of the 'did you know' section of the main page, which doesn't really have a quality bar, but the articles in the area have to be new, or significantly (5 times I think?) expanded.

You could wriggle and say that the Handel article was featured on the mainpage (true, but misleading) - this; 'Wikipedia’s “Feature Article”—the most prominent location on the site' - is just plain wrong unfortunately.


Sadly, the article is incorrect on all of the particulars of the Handel incident, but I think it does get the general point across.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
GlassBeadGame
post Wed 12th May 2010, 7:59pm
Post #12


Dharma Bum
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 7,919
Joined: Sat 17th Feb 2007, 12:55am
From: My name it means nothing. My age it means less. The country I come from is called the Mid-West.
Member No.: 981



QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 12th May 2010, 12:24pm) *

QUOTE(privatemusings @ Wed 12th May 2010, 7:49am) *

there's a mistake about the 'Handel' broo ha ha which is quite serious - the article was never 'feautured' (a process that at the very least is actually pretty hard to get through) - rather it was part of the 'did you know' section of the main page, which doesn't really have a quality bar, but the articles in the area have to be new, or significantly (5 times I think?) expanded.

You could wriggle and say that the Handel article was featured on the mainpage (true, but misleading) - this; 'Wikipedia’s “Feature Article”—the most prominent location on the site' - is just plain wrong unfortunately.


Sadly, the article is incorrect on all of the particulars of the Handel incident, but I think it does get the general point across.



I'm impressed by the maturity of that statement. I would compare it to the Wikipedia response to the Fox article which was fundamentally accurate but they mis-characterized as "riddled with errors." Journalist are of course generalists who can never meet the expectations of zealots of a topic. That you can keep this in mind while the errors concern something so close is impressive.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Larry Sanger
post Wed 12th May 2010, 8:36pm
Post #13


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun 2nd May 2010, 9:22pm
Member No.: 19,790

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(gomi @ Wed 12th May 2010, 1:28am) *

You beat me to it - it just turned up in the mailbox today. I Wonder what dmcdevit (T-C-L-K-R-D) would have to say about it?


Huh? You are a Reedie?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Moulton
post Wed 12th May 2010, 8:43pm
Post #14


Anthropologist from Mars
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 10,220
Joined: Mon 29th Oct 2007, 9:56pm
From: Greater Boston
Member No.: 3,670

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Wed 12th May 2010, 4:36pm) *
QUOTE(gomi @ Wed 12th May 2010, 1:28am) *
You beat me to it - it just turned up in the mailbox today. I Wonder what dmcdevit (T-C-L-K-R-D) would have to say about it?
Huh? You are a Reedie?

He's not only a Reedie, he's rumored to be a one-time high-level executive at a major computer chip manufacturer.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
EricBarbour
post Wed 12th May 2010, 9:14pm
Post #15


blah
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 5,919
Joined: Mon 25th Feb 2008, 2:31am
Member No.: 5,066

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(Moulton @ Wed 12th May 2010, 1:43pm) *
QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Wed 12th May 2010, 4:36pm) *
QUOTE(gomi @ Wed 12th May 2010, 1:28am) *
You beat me to it - it just turned up in the mailbox today. I Wonder what dmcdevit (T-C-L-K-R-D) would have to say about it?
Huh? You are a Reedie?
He's not only a Reedie, he's rumored to be a one-time high-level executive at a major computer chip manufacturer.

Between those two, Howard Rheingold, Jobs, Peter Norton, and Dan Kottke.......
I am compelled to conclude that Reed College is the Evil Fount of Digital Horrors. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Wed 12th May 2010, 9:14pm
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
gomi
post Wed 12th May 2010, 10:04pm
Post #16


Member
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,022
Joined: Fri 17th Nov 2006, 6:38pm
Member No.: 565



QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 12th May 2010, 2:14pm) *
Between those two, Howard Rheingold, Jobs, Peter Norton, and Dan Kottke.......
I am compelled to conclude that Reed College is the Evil Fount of Digital Horrors. biggrin.gif

Oh, come now. I've met three of those people, and firmly believe that only two of those are irredeemably evil. There's at least a 33% chance that any given Reedie is at worst chaotic/neutral.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Milton Roe
post Wed 12th May 2010, 11:33pm
Post #17


Known alias of J. Random Troll
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined: Thu 28th Feb 2008, 1:03am
Member No.: 5,156

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(gomi @ Wed 12th May 2010, 3:04pm) *

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 12th May 2010, 2:14pm) *
Between those two, Howard Rheingold, Jobs, Peter Norton, and Dan Kottke.......
I am compelled to conclude that Reed College is the Evil Fount of Digital Horrors. biggrin.gif

Oh, come now. I've met three of those people, and firmly believe that only two of those are irredeemably evil. There's at least a 33% chance that any given Reedie is at worst chaotic/neutral.

How about Steve Jobs? Was 6 months enough to pervert him to the Dark Side, or did he just improve his handwriting?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Somey
post Thu 13th May 2010, 1:25am
Post #18


Can't actually moderate (or even post)
*********

Group: Moderators
Posts: 11,814
Joined: Sat 17th Jun 2006, 7:47pm
From: Dreamland
Member No.: 275



QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Wed 12th May 2010, 11:01am) *
To be honest, I never followed the BLP stuff, I was very busy with other things at the time. Can you point me to a WR discussion or something else that sums it up?

We were all fairly impressed with this summary by Doc_Glasgow, so much so that we republished most of it in our blog.

QUOTE
So, Wikipedia announced a stricter approach to BLPs, and they never followed through?

Yes, though I suppose it depends on how you define "follow through." WP first began to get Public Relations mileage from the still-not-implemented "Flagged Revisions" feature back in mid-2006. Many of the stories that came through our newsfeed have since been archived and/or deleted, but here's one that's still available from 25 August 2006 - I believe this one was also posted on Slashdot. And this was almost a year after work began on the actual feature, which was "tested" on the German Wikipedia later in 2006 and formally adopted there a few months later.

WR member Kato (who hasn't been so active lately) started a Flagged Revisions timeline which is in need of an update - but it dates back to December 4, 2005. At this point I expect we'll get to the 5-year anniversary with the status quo intact.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
gomi
post Thu 13th May 2010, 2:08am
Post #19


Member
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,022
Joined: Fri 17th Nov 2006, 6:38pm
Member No.: 565



QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 12th May 2010, 4:33pm) *
QUOTE(gomi @ Wed 12th May 2010, 3:04pm) *
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 12th May 2010, 2:14pm) *
Between those two, Howard Rheingold, Jobs, Peter Norton, and Dan Kottke.......
I am compelled to conclude that Reed College is the Evil Fount of Digital Horrors. biggrin.gif

Oh, come now. I've met three of those people, and firmly believe that only two of those are irredeemably evil. There's at least a 33% chance that any given Reedie is at worst chaotic/neutral.

How about Steve Jobs? Was 6 months enough to pervert him to the Dark Side, or did he just improve his handwriting?

Let's just put it this way: he has someone else's liver in him! wtf.gif

And how do you think he made all that money for you?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

-   Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th 4 14, 1:26pm