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> Child erotica
carbuncle
post Tue 8th June 2010, 1:55pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Tue 8th June 2010, 7:32am) *

QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Tue 8th June 2010, 3:15am) *

And what about the children?

Ok, so what about the child, Loretta from SuicideGirls? Her profile page is here. I noticed instant cognitive dissonance (T-H-L-K-D).

As far as I know, these five sets of images were all are of the same girl, the last four are dated 2005-2006. The first one, from which the Flickr picture was uploaded is dated 2007, so this one should be the most recent, right?

The photos were dated June 14, 2007, but is this the upload date or date of photography? The comment in the comments section goes
QUOTE

Abbiss/SUICIDEGIRL/Belgium
JUN 14, 2007 06:03 AM
Wow!! I already saw all your set but couldn\'t recognize you on these! It looks like old childish pics! Very very cute! You\'re beautiful

This girl isn't native English speaker, but what I think she's seems to be saying is: I've seen your other photo sets and this looks nothing like you. They look like old childhood photos! Very very cute! You're beautiful.
Remember the above quote is from a fellow SG contract girl and is very telling.

For policy on age verification see: http://suicidegirls.com/girlsfaq/

Let's assume you're not just trolling and you believe that "Loretta" was younger than 18 at the time these pictures were taken, based solely on your own opinion and despite the legal requirement for Suicide Girls to verify the age of their models. What was your purpose in adding the image to the "child erotica" article?
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Stillwaterising
post Tue 8th June 2010, 3:19pm
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 8th June 2010, 1:55pm) *


Let's assume you're not just trolling and you believe that "Loretta" was younger than 18 at the time these pictures were taken, based solely on your own opinion and despite the legal requirement for Suicide Girls to verify the age of their models.

Lets say for the sake of argument that Loretta was over the age of 18 years old when she applied to join SuicideGirls and submitted a scanned copy of her passport and some other acceptable form of identification like her state-issued medical coverage card. Next she created an account and uploaded a "set" of photographs.

Her profile says "Loretta is a 24 year old SG from Sweden" in the title bar. The set in question was from Jun 14, 2007 (3 years ago) so she would have been around 21 then. The first set (2 years earlier) she appears to be over 18.

The photographer's profile is here (scary). I don't know what these photo's contain (not a member), but anybody who pays $12/mo can view the whole set, which MUST contain (from sect 5.20 of GIRLSFAQ):

Q: Do I have to get naked?
A: Yes, you do have to be fully nude. Fully exposed breasts and bums are required, but spread shots definitely are not. The nudity should be tasteful not graphic, but you do have to be fully nude. Think along the lines of cute, pin-up photography and not explicit nudity. We will not accept explicit, close up spread shots, any holding or touching, and certainly no penetration!! Your application never expires, so you are more than welcome to wait until you are fully comfortable to send us a set.

This post has been edited by Stillwaterising: Wed 9th June 2010, 5:01am
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Cock-up-over-conspiracy
post Tue 8th June 2010, 3:36pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Tue 8th June 2010, 7:32am) *
Remember the above quote is from a fellow SG contract girl and is very telling.

Why would I bother to "remember" anything that came off SuicideGirls? It is a website full of tarts 'buying' revolution from a bottle of ink and a stick of surgical steel being sold and exploited by a single white male under the guise of "empowerment" and providing fap material for older men who probably never got it when they were young.

If that scene was cool for 15 minutes, it was a long, long time ago.

What I am taking about the will injection of coarse, hard-core, amateur pornography, and corruption of the concept and principles of the encyclopedia as a education device, which is at the same time being targeted at real children ... not adults dressing up or even playing as them.

How far from reality are you!?!

The problem with entering into any such discussion with you on such matters is unappealing because of the the kind of logic and strategy you are using. I am starting to think you just get off on it. It will take on your behalf to prove to me that you are not.

I do not know if you are a perv ... a pedo ... a porno-freak ... or a pederast but if you are not, and you have never had the misfortune to have a discussion with one over their obsession, then you could not know why it is so unappealing.

Back to the question ... "what about the children?" ... real children ... that most ridicule question on the Wikipedia.

Do you take the Mollerian position that a little bit of hard-core porn, or even a little bit of child erotica, never did anyone any harm?


Needless to say, SuicideGirls is not an encyclopedia and not targeted at children. In fact, it had its own run in with the FBI a few years back and had to clean up its act a little.

There is nothing that enlightened or revolutionary about flashing your bits in public.
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GlassBeadGame
post Tue 8th June 2010, 3:51pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Tue 8th June 2010, 9:19am) *

QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 8th June 2010, 1:55pm) *


Let's assume you're not just trolling and you believe that "Loretta" was younger than 18 at the time these pictures were taken, based solely on your own opinion and despite the legal requirement for Suicide Girls to verify the age of their models.

Lets say for the sake of argument that Loretta was over the age of 18 years old when she applied to join SuicideGirls and submitted a scanned copy of her passport and some other acceptable form of identification like her state-issued medical coverage card. Then she Next she created an account and uploaded a "set" of photographs.

Her profile says "Loretta is a 24 year old SG from Sweden" in the title bar. The set in question was from Jun 14, 2007 (3 years ago) so she would have been around 21 then. The first set (2 years earlier) she appears to be over 18.

The photographer's profile is here (scary). I don't know what these photo's contain (not a member), but anybody who pays $12/mo can view the whole set, which MUST contain (from sect 5.20 of GIRLSFAQ):

Q: Do I have to get naked?
A: Yes, you do have to be fully nude. Fully exposed breasts and bums are required, but spread shots definitely are not. The nudity should be tasteful not graphic, but you do have to be fully nude. Think along the lines of cute, pin-up photography and not explicit nudity. We will not accept explicit, close up spread shots, any holding or touching, and certainly no penetration!! Your application never expires, so you are more than welcome to wait until you are fully comfortable to send us a set.


This is just creepy. You are not the appropriate person to be making determinations concerning "shades" of pornography. WP needs to back off, consistent with its educational mission and the fact that it is targeted for use by minors, at least as a significant and probably largest single demographic. This means sharply curtailing all but the most obviously relevant medical and scientific depictions and even then avoiding any realistic depictions when possible and certainly nothing with anything remotely like minor or near minor models. This is consistent with other general use encyclopedias. This needs to be imposed. You are seeking "secondary gains" of a very unsavory nature even in your obtuse discussions as is clearly indicated by your placement of an image, any image, in the child erotica article.
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Stillwaterising
post Tue 8th June 2010, 5:17pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 8th June 2010, 3:51pm) *

You are seeking "secondary gains" of a very unsavory nature even in your obtuse discussions as is clearly indicated by your placement of an image, any image, in the child erotica article.

¿Que?
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GlassBeadGame
post Tue 8th June 2010, 5:31pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Tue 8th June 2010, 11:17am) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 8th June 2010, 3:51pm) *

You are seeking "secondary gains" of a very unsavory nature even in your obtuse discussions as is clearly indicated by your placement of an image, any image, in the child erotica article.

¿Que?


...or reserve a Freenode channel for a porn discussion. Your placement of the image into the article seems to have been meant as a "conversation starter." You just plain like talking about porn.
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Moulton
post Tue 8th June 2010, 6:21pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 8th June 2010, 1:31pm) *
You just plain like talking about porn.

If that's the case, a more useful question would be, "What do you hope to learn by way of a discussion of these issues of child erotica?"
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GlassBeadGame
post Tue 8th June 2010, 6:23pm
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Tue 8th June 2010, 12:21pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 8th June 2010, 1:31pm) *
You just plain like talking about porn.

If that's the case, a more useful question would be, "What do you hope to learn by way of a discussion of these issues of child erotica?"


Some "talk" is not about "learn."
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Moulton
post Tue 8th June 2010, 6:35pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 8th June 2010, 2:23pm) *
QUOTE(Moulton @ Tue 8th June 2010, 12:21pm) *
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 8th June 2010, 1:31pm) *
You just plain like talking about porn.
If that's the case, a more useful question would be, "What do you hope to learn by way of a discussion of these issues of child erotica?"
Some "talk" is not about "learn."

Let's let SWR admit that.
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carbuncle
post Tue 8th June 2010, 7:00pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Tue 8th June 2010, 3:19pm) *

QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 8th June 2010, 1:55pm) *


Let's assume you're not just trolling and you believe that "Loretta" was younger than 18 at the time these pictures were taken, based solely on your own opinion and despite the legal requirement for Suicide Girls to verify the age of their models.

Lets say for the sake of argument that Loretta was over the age of 18 years old when she applied to join SuicideGirls and submitted a scanned copy of her passport and some other acceptable form of identification like her state-issued medical coverage card. Then she Next she created an account and uploaded a "set" of photographs.

Her profile says "Loretta is a 24 year old SG from Sweden" in the title bar. The set in question was from Jun 14, 2007 (3 years ago) so she would have been around 21 then. The first set (2 years earlier) she appears to be over 18.

The photographer's profile is here (scary). I don't know what these photo's contain (not a member), but anybody who pays $12/mo can view the whole set, which MUST contain (from sect 5.20 of GIRLSFAQ):

Q: Do I have to get naked?
A: Yes, you do have to be fully nude. Fully exposed breasts and bums are required, but spread shots definitely are not. The nudity should be tasteful not graphic, but you do have to be fully nude. Think along the lines of cute, pin-up photography and not explicit nudity. We will not accept explicit, close up spread shots, any holding or touching, and certainly no penetration!! Your application never expires, so you are more than welcome to wait until you are fully comfortable to send us a set.

If you're trying to make a point here, I'm really not getting what it is. Why are you avoiding my question for a second time? What was your purpose in adding the image to the "child erotica" article?


This post has been edited by carbuncle: Tue 8th June 2010, 7:03pm
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Kevin
post Tue 8th June 2010, 8:40pm
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Wed 9th June 2010, 5:00am) *

If you're trying to make a point here, I'm really not getting what it is. Why are you avoiding my question for a second time? What was your purpose in adding the image to the "child erotica" article?

I asked the same thing on IRC about 3 times and all I got was evasiveness, talk of 2257, the apparent age of the model, and how it fit within Commons' scope. No substantive answer on this question was forthcoming. I don't think he remotely understands the issues.
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Somey
post Wed 9th June 2010, 12:38am
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QUOTE(Kevin @ Tue 8th June 2010, 3:40pm) *
I asked the same thing on IRC about 3 times and all I got was evasiveness, talk of 2257, the apparent age of the model, and how it fit within Commons' scope. No substantive answer on this question was forthcoming. I don't think he remotely understands the issues.

More likely he knows he did something dumb, if not seriously wrong, and doesn't want to "man up" about it...? Because, you know, that would be embarrassing.
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Moulton
post Wed 9th June 2010, 2:40am
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That's why I suggested asking him what he's trying to learn via these discussions. It's not an embarrassment to be a lifelong learner.
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Alison
post Wed 9th June 2010, 3:25am
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 8th June 2010, 8:51am) *

This is just creepy. You are not the appropriate person to be making determinations concerning "shades" of pornography. WP needs to back off, consistent with its educational mission and the fact that it is targeted for use by minors, at least as a significant and probably largest single demographic. This means sharply curtailing all but the most obviously relevant medical and scientific depictions and even then avoiding any realistic depictions when possible and certainly nothing with anything remotely like minor or near minor models. This is consistent with other general use encyclopedias. This needs to be imposed. You are seeking "secondary gains" of a very unsavory nature even in your obtuse discussions as is clearly indicated by your placement of an image, any image, in the child erotica article.

I hate it when I agree 100% with GBG. Dang! confused.gif
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Cock-up-over-conspiracy
post Wed 9th June 2010, 9:23am
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 8th June 2010, 7:00pm) *
Why are you avoiding my question for a second time? What was your purpose in adding the image to the "child erotica" article?

QUOTE(Kevin @ Tue 8th June 2010, 8:40pm) *
I asked the same thing on IRC about 3 times and all I got was evasiveness ... No substantive answer on this question was forthcoming. I don't think he remotely understands the issues.

I have asked twice how Stillwaterising can square the inclusion of hard core amateur porn and the targeting of school and children and I am also being blanked.

Does not say much for the sincerity of their Damascene conversion.
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Lar
post Wed 9th June 2010, 10:43am
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 8th June 2010, 3:00pm) *

If you're trying to make a point here, I'm really not getting what it is. Why are you avoiding my question for a second time? What was your purpose in adding the image to the "child erotica" article?


Me either. I do know that over on Commons, SWR has been involved in a lot of disputes with various folk. Some are in the "we must have porn on Commons" camp and some have been working to do things about it for some time (however ineffectively) but SWR doesn't think they're trying hard enough, or whatever.

I'm not sure SWR's contributions are a net positive overall. Or what SWR's actual long term goal is.
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Stillwaterising
post Wed 9th June 2010, 4:23pm
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 8th June 2010, 7:00pm) *

If you're trying to make a point here, I'm really not getting what it is. Why are you avoiding my question for a second time? What was your purpose in adding the image to the "child erotica" article?

My purpose was several fold:
1. Bring awareness to the issue
2. Reuse this image as a test case of proposed child erotica policies (none existed before I wrote them -diff)
3. Test the Commons' community reaction to

Getting attention like this wasn't what I was expecting. I don't see how people can sit back in their chairs and freely attack my motivations but sit back and do nothing about it.

Here's what I encourage people to do:
1. Read and participate developing the Commons:Sexual content guidelines. Policies set by Commons affect ALL projects, not just Commons.
2. Report any (on or off-wiki) images of apparent (no proof needed) child pornography/erotica to the NCMEC. This included drawing/illustrations/and cartoons regardless of date of manufacture.
3. Report any images found on WMF to the Foundation (here)
4. Contact the lawmakers and policy makers (OPTF) and help get the laws changed.
5. Last -- stop attacking the messenger! If you want to "go after" somebody go after the person(s) rescpondible for Cock and ball torture (T-H-L-K-D).

Please read my signature below. That's his original statement which has been misquoted as "All it takes for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing."

This post has been edited by Stillwaterising: Wed 9th June 2010, 4:30pm
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thekohser
post Wed 9th June 2010, 6:05pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Wed 9th June 2010, 12:23pm) *

Getting attention like this wasn't what I was expecting. I don't see how people can sit back in their chairs and freely attack my motivations but sit back and do nothing about it.


I'm banned from most every Wikimedia project.

How can I help you?!


QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Wed 9th June 2010, 12:23pm) *

5. Last -- stop attacking the messenger! If you want to "go after" somebody go after the person(s) rescpondible for Cock and ball torture (T-H-L-K-D).


You mean Tony Sidaway?

Sure, I'll be happy to "go after" him. Unban, please!!
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GlassBeadGame
post Wed 9th June 2010, 6:43pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Wed 9th June 2010, 10:23am) *

QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 8th June 2010, 7:00pm) *

If you're trying to make a point here, I'm really not getting what it is. Why are you avoiding my question for a second time? What was your purpose in adding the image to the "child erotica" article?

My purpose was several fold:
1. Bring awareness to the issue
2. Reuse this image as a test case of proposed child erotica policies (none existed before I wrote them -diff)
3. Test the Commons' community reaction to

Getting attention like this wasn't what I was expecting. I don't see how people can sit back in their chairs and freely attack my motivations but sit back and do nothing about it.

Here's what I encourage people to do:
1. Read and participate developing the Commons:Sexual content guidelines. Policies set by Commons affect ALL projects, not just Commons.
2. Report any (on or off-wiki) images of apparent (no proof needed) child pornography/erotica to the NCMEC. This included drawing/illustrations/and cartoons regardless of date of manufacture.
3. Report any images found on WMF to the Foundation (here)
4. Contact the lawmakers and policy makers (OPTF) and help get the laws changed.
5. Last -- stop attacking the messenger! If you want to "go after" somebody go after the person(s) rescpondible for Cock and ball torture (T-H-L-K-D).

Please read my signature below. That's his original statement which has been misquoted as "All it takes for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing."


Still cluessless. You do not even seem to grasp the reason people find your action unacceptable. ★★★Porn Czar ★★★ is not going to happen for you. Go find something else to do.
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carbuncle
post Wed 9th June 2010, 6:50pm
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QUOTE(Stillwaterising @ Wed 9th June 2010, 4:23pm) *

My purpose was several fold:
1. Bring awareness to the issue
2. Reuse this image as a test case of proposed child erotica policies (none existed before I wrote them -diff)
3. Test the Commons' community reaction to

Getting attention like this wasn't what I was expecting. I don't see how people can sit back in their chairs and freely attack my motivations but sit back and do nothing about it.

As at least one other person has already suggested in this discussion, your actions don't seem congruent with your stated intentions. That might be some failing on my part to understand what you hope your actions will set in motion on WP.

Let's see if I get this:
  • from your earlier messages here, you seem to believe that the woman pictyred in the image in question was a minor when the photo was taken;
  • you have proposed policies intended to prevent editors from adding child erotica to WP;
  • you added the image (which you believe to be actual child erotica) to WP;
Am I missing something?
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