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Religious crap, from the Righteous Brothers |
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| Abd |
Mon 13th September 2010, 4:27pm
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 13th September 2010, 12:11pm)  QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Mon 13th September 2010, 4:44am)  QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 13th September 2010, 11:32am)  I always hated Anarcho-Communists, and there are no problems with damp bints tossing scimitars.
Including Jesus? If he's accepting scimitars, he's more likely Muhammad. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif) I think Charlotte was talking about "anarcho-syndicalists," not the would-be King. Yeah, if someone gave Muhammad a sword, he'd accept it, but he'd also give it away, within a day, that was his practice for almost everything. None of the characters in this part of the movie, at least, represent either Muhammad or Jesus, peace be upon them both, but the one most likely to be a Christian would be the "dirty peasant," and maybe his wife and the other peasants, and, in fact, maybe the King as well. He doesn't seem like such a bad sort, just a little melodramatic and impatient. As he ages, he might come to a point where he'd be laughing with Dennis over how preposterous the whole thing is, while the horse's ass looks on with disapproval at the lese majeste involved.
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| Zoloft |
Mon 13th September 2010, 6:45pm
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May we all find solace in our dreams.
     
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QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 13th September 2010, 11:23am)  QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 11th September 2010, 9:27am)  Well, then, let me note that Mike.lifeguard is a serial liar and a bully.
Unlike Cap'n Crunch, who is a cereal liar and a bully. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/evilgrin.gif) Cap'n Crunch only wanted to make free long distance phone calls... (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/mellow.gif)
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| CharlotteWebb |
Mon 13th September 2010, 9:20pm
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 13th September 2010, 4:11pm)  If he's accepting scimitars, he's more likely Muhammad. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif) Shrug. QUOTE(Jesús) QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 13th September 2010, 6:08pm)  Give to Caesar what is Caesar's. I believe he was calling for his followers to reject the steadily debasing Julio-dollars (denarii, the original euro) in favor of a pure bartering economy, albeit at lower levels. QUOTE Jesus never said "help help, I'm being repressed" but " [Father,] into your hands I commend my spirit". He was quite willing to suffer the consequences of his actions and never called for a reform of the political system. After all, Heaven is what matters and focusing on the here and now distracts from that. Added context in bold-face (see link) which evidences that Jesus was addressing "God" and not any agent of the imperial Roman government (from which he sought to isolate his people politically and economically, as above).
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| Abd |
Mon 13th September 2010, 10:22pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 13th September 2010, 2:08pm)  Give to Caesar what is Caesar's. Jesus never said "help help, I'm being repressed" but "into your hands I commend my spirit". He was quite willing to suffer the consequences of his actions and never called for a reform of the political system. After all, Heaven is what matters and focusing on the here and now distracts from that.
He never called for a reform. He acted to reform, he tossed those who were polluting the Temple with their selfishness out on their ears, though, hey, I'm not a Christian, just a friend, and hopefully a friend of his, though I don't know I can count on that, and maybe I got the story wrong. Let those who have ears, hear.
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| Ottava |
Tue 14th September 2010, 4:06am
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QUOTE(gomi @ Mon 13th September 2010, 11:37pm)  QUOTE(jayvdb @ Mon 13th September 2010, 8:14pm)  QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 13th September 2010, 6:08pm)  [Jesus] never called for a reform of the political system. Either you need to brush up on your bible, or you have a very narrow definition of the 'political system' of the time. Isn't it odd how so-called "conservative Christians" keep forgetting bits of the Bible, such as "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24) and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7)? 1. Heaven is not a political system. 2. The right to cast the first stone in a case of adultery was the husband. He was not there. Therefore, Jesus was saying that in such a case only a person who was truly without sin (since the mob could not claim they were sinned against and lacked the ability to call for justice) would be the only one deserving to pass judgment upon her in the matter. QUOTE(jayvdb @ Mon 13th September 2010, 11:14pm)  QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 13th September 2010, 6:08pm)  [Jesus] never called for a reform of the political system.
Either you need to brush up on your bible, or you have a very narrow definition of the 'political system' of the time. Jesus made it clear over and over that he was not there to overthrow Rome or be the political leader the Jews were hoping for: Luke 23:2-6, 13-14: ἤρξαντο δὲ κατηγορεῖν αὐτοῦ λέγοντες: τοῦτον εὕραμεν διαστρέφοντα τὸ ἔθνος ἡμῶν καὶ κωλύοντα φόρους Καίσαρι διδόναι, καὶ λέγοντα ἑαυτὸν Χριστὸν βασιλέα εἶναι. ὁ δὲ Πιλᾶτος ἠρώτησεν αὐτὸν λέγων: σὺ εἶ ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων; ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς αὐτῷ ἔφη: σὺ λέγεις. ὁ δὲ Πιλᾶτος εἶπεν πρὸς τοὺς ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ τοὺς ὄχλους: οὐδὲν εὑρίσκω αἴτιον ἐν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ τούτῳ. οἱ δὲ ἐπίσχυον λέγοντες ὅτι ἀνασείει τὸν λαὸν, διδάσκων καθ' ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς Γαλιλαίας ἕως ὧδε. Πιλᾶτος δὲ ἀκούσας ἐπηρώτησεν εἰ [ὁ] ἄνθρωπος Γαλιλαῖός ἐστιν, Πιλᾶτος δὲ συγκαλεσάμενος τοὺς ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ τὸν λαὸν εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς: προσηνέγκατέ μοι τὸν ἄνθρωπον τοῦτον ὡς ἀποστρέφοντα τὸν λαόν, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐνώπιον ὑμῶν ἀνακρίνας οὐθὲν εὗρον ἐν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ τούτῳ αἴτιον ὧν κατηγορεῖτε κατ' αὐτοῦ, Or, better put, John 18: 35-38: ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Πιλᾶτος: μήτι ἐγὼ Ἰουδαῖός εἰμι; τὸ ἔθνος τὸ σὸν καὶ οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς παρέδωκάν σε ἐμοί: τί ἐποίησας; ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς: ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμὴ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου: εἰ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου ἦν ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμή, οἱ ὑπηρέται οἱ ἐμοὶ ἠγωνίζοντο ἄν, ἵνα μὴ παραδοθῶ τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις: νῦν δὲ ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμὴ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐντεῦθεν. εἶπεν οὖν αὐτῷ ὁ Πιλᾶτος: οὐκοῦν βασιλεὺς εἶ σύ; ἀπεκρίθη [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς: σὺ λέγεις, ὅτι βασιλεύς εἰμι. ἐγὼ εἰς τοῦτο γεγέννημαι καὶ εἰς τοῦτο ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον, ἵνα μαρτυρήσω τῇ ἀληθείᾳ: πᾶς ὁ ὢν ἐκ τῆς ἀληθείας ἀκούει μου τῆς φωνῆς. λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Πιλᾶτος: τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια; καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν πάλιν ἐξῆλθεν πρὸς τοὺς Ἰουδαίους, καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς: ἐγὼ οὐδεμίαν εὑρίσκω ἐν αὐτῷ αἰτίαν. Both are the trial of Jesus where Pilate shows that there was no political insurrection and that Jesus claimed nothing about politics of this world and only of the next.
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| The Joy |
Tue 14th September 2010, 6:27am
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I am a millipede! I am amazing!
       
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I'm confused. Are we comparing Greg or Abd to Jesus and Ottava or Jimbo to the Pharisees? (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif) At any rate, this a clear victory for Greg. Jimbo's ability to control all WMF wikis has failed and the power of the Stewards has been successfully challenged. A small wiki defeated Jimbo and his Steward henchmen. We should rejoice for this victory, but the war is far from over. This... is... Wikibooks!(IMG: http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/Ultrahunter99/300-leonidas.jpg) Adrignola leads WikiBookians against the more numerous Stewards!
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| Moulton |
Tue 14th September 2010, 11:52am
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Anthropologist from Mars
        
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CamelCase ReduxQUOTE(Abd @ Tue 14th September 2010, 12:45am)  Jesus didn't speak Greek. He spoke Aramaic. And therein lies the source of the following mystery... QUOTE(gomi no sensei @ Mon 13th September 2010, 11:37pm)  "Christians" keep forgetting bits of the Bible, such as "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24) It is easier to remember quotes that make sense than for a linguist to diagnose what's wrong with the one cited above by Warden Gomi. The Hebrew word for Camel is גמל ( Gamal). The third letter of the Hebrew alphabet is Gimel ( ג or גִּימֵל). There is also a Gimel in Aramaic. And there is even a story about the glyph for Gimel. QUOTE(Gimel means Consequences (Reward and Punishment)) ג — Our Sages teach that the Gimel symbolizes a rich man running after a poor man, the Dalet, to give him charity. The word gimel is derived from the word gemul, which in Hebrew means both the giving of reward as well as the giving of punishment. In Torah, both reward and punishment have the same ultimate aim — the rectification of the soul to merit to receive Urim (God's light) to the fullest extent. A little study (such as the above) suggests that the senseless bible quote recalled above by Warden Gomi is very likely a mistranscription or mistranslation from Hebrew or Aramaic. It is easier to thread a gimel through the eye of a needle than for a man who seeks riches to achieve serenity.You see, a man who seeks riches, not unlike the gambling addict who pulls the lever of a slot machine all the livelong day, is a dopamine-driven character, who measures his reward one incremental coin at a time. Compare the dopamine-driven gamester to the endorphin-driven problem-solver whose reward comes not at every little step along the way but all at once at the end of the journey. Whether you call the Kingdom of God by traditional names (like Heaven, Nirvana, Satori, Serenity, Ecstasy, or Eureka) or by less mystical terms (like the Endorphin Rush of the "Hallelujah" Moment), it's still a mechaiah, a "warm fuzzy" or a "marvelous feeling" in any language or terminology. And you won't get to the ultimate reward (an Endorphin High) if you spend every moment seeking a transient and ephemeral Dopamine Thrill, round after round after round of the same old banal Game of Gomi's Gimels.
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| Doc glasgow |
Tue 14th September 2010, 2:40pm
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Wikipedia:The Sump of All Human Knowledge
     
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 14th September 2010, 5:06am)  Jesus made it clear over and over that he was not there to overthrow Rome or be the political leader the Jews were hoping for:
True, and not so true. The magnificat is (properly read) fairly political. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.To pray "your kingdom come on earth as in heaven" is (in context) pretty political. The ancient world simply did not have the sacred/secular divide which allows us to (try to) split sacred from secular and relegate religion to the first. The fact that Jesus WAS executed as a political problem from Rome and not simply as a religious problem for Judaism is telling. He was certainly not posting himself as the leader of a rebellion, but he was claiming that Israel's liberating God was on the move - and that challenged the authority of the God-emperors. The call "Kurios Christos" runs quickly up against the political claim that Caesar is saviour and lord - as the early Christians soon found out. The distinction between "this world" and the next is fairly alien to the New Testament. QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 14th September 2010, 2:56pm)  The "camel through the eye of a needle" was a well known quote back then - the "eye of a needle" or "eye of the needle" was a nickname for a small entrance into Jerusalem - the gate way was too small for a fully burden camel to get through. What did merchants have to do? Take off all he goods from the camel, walk it through the gate, then move the goods across one by one.
This is a ridiculous piece of dated reductionist scholarship that's long been discredited. Try buying a modern commentary. Mods, are we a little "off topic" here. I perfectly happy to correct Ottova on his Biblical misreadlings ..... but? This post has been edited by Doc glasgow: Tue 14th September 2010, 4:09pm
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| Ottava |
Tue 14th September 2010, 5:19pm
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Über Pokemon
       
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QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Tue 14th September 2010, 10:40am)  QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 14th September 2010, 5:06am)  Jesus made it clear over and over that he was not there to overthrow Rome or be the political leader the Jews were hoping for:
True, and not so true. The magnificat is (properly read) fairly political. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.To pray "your kingdom come on earth as in heaven" is (in context) pretty political. The ancient world simply did not have the sacred/secular divide which allows us to (try to) split sacred from secular and relegate religion to the first. The fact that Jesus WAS executed as a political problem from Rome and not simply as a religious problem for Judaism is telling. He was certainly not posting himself as the leader of a rebellion, but he was claiming that Israel's liberating God was on the move - and that challenged the authority of the God-emperors. The call "Kurios Christos" runs quickly up against the political claim that Caesar is saviour and lord - as the early Christians soon found out. The distinction between "this world" and the next is fairly alien to the New Testament. QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 14th September 2010, 2:56pm)  The "camel through the eye of a needle" was a well known quote back then - the "eye of a needle" or "eye of the needle" was a nickname for a small entrance into Jerusalem - the gate way was too small for a fully burden camel to get through. What did merchants have to do? Take off all he goods from the camel, walk it through the gate, then move the goods across one by one.
This is a ridiculous piece of dated reductionist scholarship that's long been discredited. Try buying a modern commentary. Mods, are we a little "off topic" here. I perfectly happy to correct Ottova on his Biblical misreadlings ..... but? Magnificat is not political. It is discussing heaven and makes it clear that even politically great people were able to get into Heaven as long as they humbled themselves before the Lord. By the way, your claims about the info above being date is bs, but it is nice of you to try and throw out a lot of nonsense. You don't have the first clue about religion or theology nor have the ability to go toe to toe with me on the matter, especially when I have a ten year head start on you in research, scholarship, academics, writing, and the rest in the field. And if you could read Biblical Greek, you would see that "this world" vs. "the next" actually comes up in the quote. Your statement above saying otherwise reveals you as a troll, so fuck off. This post has been edited by Ottava: Tue 14th September 2010, 5:20pm
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| Abd |
Tue 14th September 2010, 5:50pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 14th September 2010, 1:19pm)  And if you could read Biblical Greek, you would see that "this world" vs. "the next" actually comes up in the quote. Your statement above saying otherwise reveals you as a troll, so fuck off. All of which demonstrates the value of studying the text vs. practicing it. As to biblical exegesis, though, I will merely state that Ottava's head is wedged in a dark place, and, as was said on a certain poster over forty years ago, "May the Baby Jesus shut your mouth and open your mind." As a young man about Ottava's age, that stuck. Moulton's exegesis is more interesting, but still suspect. Let's set all that aside and say that the intention of the camel/gimel/needle quote is extremely clear, given the convergence of all the major religions on this point.... and, sure, the simile is relevant to the "this world vs. the next" issue; however, there is only one world, and "there" is "as here," as we ask for. We ask for what already is, so that we may more easily accept it. The "kingdom of heaven" refers to dominion over the self, not over the world, that's true, but those who have reached this dominion are freed from the kingdoms of "this world," which means the illusions of power that are so pervasive. And that is one thing that those who think themselves the rulers of these cannot tolerate, the true freedom of their "subjects." Hence the political implications. As above, so below has a corollary: as below, so above. How we are today is the seed of how we are tomorrow. Get a habit of looking back, it will tell you where you have been going, and it's your choice if you want to continue going that way.
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