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> A long chat with Wikifan
It's the blimp, Frank
post Wed 15th June 2011, 3:04am
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Could we have a low grade sci-fi flick where Wikipe-tan meets Wikifan?
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Milton Roe
post Wed 15th June 2011, 3:26am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 6:48pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 14th June 2011, 9:27pm) *

All this is so clearly Bizarro World that one needs a reason for it otherwise. Believe me, I don't like the reason I've come up with, and if you have a better one, I'm all ears. But I think you and I both know what happened.


One reason I've heard floated is that a lot of the money comes right back to the United States in the form of military equipment purchases, so in a way it's like subsidizing the defense industry.

Additionally, having our equipment in the hands of a trusted ally who occasionally needs to use it teaches us something about how well it works, and saves American lives by helping us build more effective weapons systems. They've helped us develop missile defense, for example.

It makes more sense to me than the U.S. government responding to some sob story about mass murder 65 years ago.



There is no reason to "subsidize the defense industry." When it comes to non-economic reasons to have a defense industry (and they do of course exist), the DoD is fully capable of doing their own lobbying. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

As for the economy, we all realize that defense-spending itself doesn't help the economy. A defense job created with tax money kills some other job by taking the money; ergo no net job increase. See Parable of the broken window.

The idea that we save American lives by giving equipment to "trusted allies" to test, assumes that Ameicans somehow have a difficult time finding wartime ways to test their own equipment. The history of the last 20 years convinces me otherwise. It's not needed. Nor is Israel that particularly trusted. Israeli "help" in radar defense ended with US-funded technology being sold by Israel to China, or at least they tried to: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

QUOTE
The real danger comes in Israel's habit of reverse engineering U.S. technology and selling to nations hostile to U.S. interests. Israel's client list includes Cambodia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, the South Lebanon Army, India, China, Burma and Zambia. The U.S. has most recently warmed up to India and is now in fact competing with Israel for arms sales there, but the other Israeli customers remain dubious at best.


Lastly, not all the money that goes from the US to Israel is in weapons subsidies. That's a huge myth, widely believed and much beloved by AIPAC. But something like a billion a year is in cash, and can be used to buy anything, and is.

"It makes more sense to me than the U.S. government responding to some sob story about mass murder 65 years ago."

Oh, but it's not that simple. AIPAC simply does to US congressman and says "You support Israel fully, don't you?" And if you don't, you find out that your opponent is getting huge amounts of money. So suddenly you find yourself very sympathetic to the memory of the holocaust and everything else. You put on a kippah like Obama did, and pray at the wailing wall in Jeruselem. Bush before him did the same. So did Clinton.

http://www.coffinman.co.uk/jews_of_the_world_unite.htm
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Sololol
post Wed 15th June 2011, 3:42am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 9:48pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 14th June 2011, 9:27pm) *

All this is so clearly Bizarro World that one needs a reason for it otherwise. Believe me, I don't like the reason I've come up with, and if you have a better one, I'm all ears. But I think you and I both know what happened.


One reason I've heard floated is that a lot of the money comes right back to the United States in the form of military equipment purchases, so in a way it's like subsidizing the defense industry.

Additionally, having our equipment in the hands of a trusted ally who occasionally needs to use it teaches us something about how well it works, and saves American lives by helping us build more effective weapons systems. They've helped us develop missile defense, for example.

So it's not that we are donating money to Israel, we are donating tax payer money to ...Lockheed-Martin?
Total US aid to Israel (per the State Department 2010) is something like $165 billion dollars since 1948 and the annual US contribution just keeps growing. This made a lot of sense back in the bad old days when Israel actually could have been destroyed and we were scrapping with the Evil Empire. It makes zero sense now that Israel is a nuclear power with a thriving economy. Compare that to say, South Korea, another allied nation with a solid economy. Despite a fifty year standoff with various nutjobs (now with nukes, albeit shoddy ones) commanding the third largest military in the world they don't even rank in our top ten military aid recipients. I have no idea why.
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Emperor
post Wed 15th June 2011, 3:43am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 14th June 2011, 11:26pm) *


Jesus dude. We're done here.
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EricBarbour
post Wed 15th June 2011, 3:49am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 8:43pm) *
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 14th June 2011, 11:26pm) *
Jesus dude. We're done here.

I was done with Wikifan a looong time ago......
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Emperor
post Wed 15th June 2011, 3:52am
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Tue 14th June 2011, 11:49pm) *

QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 8:43pm) *
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 14th June 2011, 11:26pm) *
Jesus dude. We're done here.

I was done with Wikifan a looong time ago......

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny, but stand with Milton now and I'll consider you an antisemite too. Follow that link.
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Milton Roe
post Wed 15th June 2011, 4:09am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 8:52pm) *

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Tue 14th June 2011, 11:49pm) *

QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 8:43pm) *
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 14th June 2011, 11:26pm) *
Jesus dude. We're done here.

I was done with Wikifan a looong time ago......

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny, but stand with Milton now and I'll consider you an antisemite too. Follow that link.

Sigh. I found that site using google image search, and it's a very convenient repository for images. Don't hold me responsible for any ideas it may (or may not) contain. I figured it was kosher but I guess not.

Jesus yourself, man. Are we stooping so low as to guilt me by association of where I get my web photos from?
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The Joy
post Wed 15th June 2011, 4:10am
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QUOTE(It's the blimp, Frank @ Tue 14th June 2011, 11:04pm) *

Could we have a low grade sci-fi flick where Wikipe-tan meets Wikifan?


(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Neko_Wikipe-tan.svg/500px-Neko_Wikipe-tan.svg.png)(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/IDF-ground-forces002.jpg)
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Emperor
post Wed 15th June 2011, 4:27am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 15th June 2011, 12:09am) *

Sigh. I found that site using google image search, and it's a very convenient repository for images. Don't hold me responsible for any ideas it may (or may not) contain. I figured it was kosher but I guess not.

Jesus yourself, man. Are we stooping so low as to guilt me by association of where I get my web photos from?


Ok then at best you're an unwitting tool of hatemongers who doesn't know how to apologize.
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Milton Roe
post Wed 15th June 2011, 4:30am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 9:27pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 15th June 2011, 12:09am) *

Sigh. I found that site using google image search, and it's a very convenient repository for images. Don't hold me responsible for any ideas it may (or may not) contain. I figured it was kosher but I guess not.

Jesus yourself, man. Are we stooping so low as to guilt me by association of where I get my web photos from?


Ok then at best you're an unwitting tool of hatemongers who doesn't know how to apologize.

I have no idea who they are. I followed the links back to their home page and they don't EVEN look like simple hatemongers. More like paranoid total conspiracy fruitcakes.

But as I said, you are free to take a look at the page of photos I linked to. They tell their own story just as they are, no text needed. And none implied.
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Milton Roe
post Wed 15th June 2011, 4:42am
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QUOTE(Sololol @ Tue 14th June 2011, 8:42pm) *

QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 9:48pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 14th June 2011, 9:27pm) *

All this is so clearly Bizarro World that one needs a reason for it otherwise. Believe me, I don't like the reason I've come up with, and if you have a better one, I'm all ears. But I think you and I both know what happened.


One reason I've heard floated is that a lot of the money comes right back to the United States in the form of military equipment purchases, so in a way it's like subsidizing the defense industry.

Additionally, having our equipment in the hands of a trusted ally who occasionally needs to use it teaches us something about how well it works, and saves American lives by helping us build more effective weapons systems. They've helped us develop missile defense, for example.

So it's not that we are donating money to Israel, we are donating tax payer money to ...Lockheed-Martin?
Total US aid to Israel (per the State Department 2010) is something like $165 billion dollars since 1948 and the annual US contribution just keeps growing. This made a lot of sense back in the bad old days when Israel actually could have been destroyed and we were scrapping with the Evil Empire. It makes zero sense now that Israel is a nuclear power with a thriving economy. Compare that to say, South Korea, another allied nation with a solid economy. Despite a fifty year standoff with various nutjobs (now with nukes, albeit shoddy ones) commanding the third largest military in the world they don't even rank in our top ten military aid recipients. I have no idea why.

Well, in a word, no lobby clout. Of course that begs the question.

If North Korea with its gigantic army became uncontained and began to spread out over Indochina, there would be hell to pay.

If one of Israel's neighbors ate it, by contrast, the balance of power in the world would not change in the least (yes, the Arabs would still have all the oil in the region), except for what happened to Israel's fairly large numbers of nuclear weapons. Which we (the US) probably should not have pressured them to stop making after the first (say) dozen or two. Now we have a little country surrounded by angry neighbors, and they have probably several hundred nuclear warheads. How many do they need? A thousand? Ten thousand?

How long before Israel demands a permanent seat on the UN security council, to be obtained the same way the five Great Powers there now, got their seats?
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post Wed 15th June 2011, 4:50am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 15th June 2011, 12:30am) *

I have no idea who they are. I followed the links back to their home page and they don't EVEN look like simple hatemongers. More like paranoid total conspiracy fruitcakes.

But as I said, you are free to take a look at the page of photos I linked to. They tell their own story just as they are, no text needed. And none implied.


"Hey, take a look at this site I found on Google. I find the picture gallery to be so enlightening. Whoops it's a hate site. But take a look anyway, just try to tune out the anti-jew, anti-pope stuff. It's really interesting."
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Milton Roe
post Wed 15th June 2011, 5:09am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 14th June 2011, 9:50pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 15th June 2011, 12:30am) *

I have no idea who they are. I followed the links back to their home page and they don't EVEN look like simple hatemongers. More like paranoid total conspiracy fruitcakes.

But as I said, you are free to take a look at the page of photos I linked to. They tell their own story just as they are, no text needed. And none implied.


"Hey, take a look at this site I found on Google. I find the picture gallery to be so enlightening. Whoops it's a hate site. But take a look anyway, just try to tune out the anti-jew, anti-pope stuff. It's really interesting."

They seem to be anti-Christian of any kind, not just anti-Catholic.

But I can't read most of it because it's screwing with my flash player. However, they seem to have figured out that organized religion is merely the handmaiden of political power, and then been shocked by that. Truly shocked. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif)

I myself took all that for granted, long, long ago. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif) I mean, come on. When they get over their shock, perhaps they'll get over the hatred it engenders. Or not. I don't really care.

What I myself feel for the powers-that-be in the world is something close to hate, but not quite. It's more like monstrous irritation and outrage. It doesn't make me want to kill anybody, but it's a good thing I don't have the alleged powers of God, or a WHOLE lot of toys would disappear.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)
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Wikifan
post Wed 15th June 2011, 5:30am
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QUOTE
Lastly, not all the money that goes from the US to Israel is in weapons subsidies. That's a huge myth, widely believed and much beloved by AIPAC. But something like a billion a year is in cash, and can be used to buy anything, and is.


source?

foreign military financing is never distributed in "cash." all foreign military sales - to all nations - are tied up in long-stand bi-lateral agreements. aid to israel, unlike aid to iraq, pakistan, egypt, jordan, and lebanon - is highly regulated and watched over. not a second goes by where we don't hear about it.

but, just about a week ago it was discovered over 6 billion in US tax dollars has disappeared in Iraq. hmmm.

6 billion stolen

also - this website is a joke. but then again it explains your positions here. a joke that is.

QUOTE
How long before Israel demands a permanent seat on the UN security council, to be obtained the same way the five Great Powers there now, got their seats?


your ignorance continues. however could israel get a PERMANENT seat on the UN security council when it can't even get a temporary position on the UN security council? syria, egypt, jordan, iraq, lebanon, qatar, etc...have all sat on the UNSC at one point or another.

but the only nation that isn't totally in the dark ages in the ME is blacklisted. you are a very paranoid person. in any case, i doubt the israel foreign ministry values the diplomatic role of the UN because it essentially a tool used by the arab league/non-aligned movement to keep their wars and genocides side-lined while palestine/israel is #1 on the to-do list for eternity.

This post has been edited by Wikifan: Wed 15th June 2011, 5:38am
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Milton Roe
post Wed 15th June 2011, 6:14am
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Tue 14th June 2011, 10:30pm) *

QUOTE
Lastly, not all the money that goes from the US to Israel is in weapons subsidies. That's a huge myth, widely believed and much beloved by AIPAC. But something like a billion a year is in cash, and can be used to buy anything, and is.


source?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...oreign_aid.html
QUOTE(Wikifan @ Tue 14th June 2011, 10:30pm) *

foreign military financing is never distributed in "cash." all foreign military sales - to all nations - are tied up in long-stand bi-lateral agreements. aid to israel, unlike aid to iraq, pakistan, egypt, jordan, and lebanon - is highly regulated and watched over. not a second goes by where we don't hear about it.

Cash. Money. I don't mean that physical bales of currency are sent. The cash part goes as wire-transfer of 1's and 0's that represent "U.S. dollars" in the international banking system, but money is money. You do understand the concept of money?
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Wikifan
post Wed 15th June 2011, 6:59am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 15th June 2011, 6:14am) *

QUOTE(Wikifan @ Tue 14th June 2011, 10:30pm) *

QUOTE
Lastly, not all the money that goes from the US to Israel is in weapons subsidies. That's a huge myth, widely believed and much beloved by AIPAC. But something like a billion a year is in cash, and can be used to buy anything, and is.


source?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...oreign_aid.html
QUOTE(Wikifan @ Tue 14th June 2011, 10:30pm) *

foreign military financing is never distributed in "cash." all foreign military sales - to all nations - are tied up in long-stand bi-lateral agreements. aid to israel, unlike aid to iraq, pakistan, egypt, jordan, and lebanon - is highly regulated and watched over. not a second goes by where we don't hear about it.

Cash. Money. I don't mean that physical bales of currency are sent. The cash part goes as wire-transfer of 1's and 0's that represent "U.S. dollars" in the international banking system, but money is money. You do understand the concept of money?


your source doesn't support what you originally said:

That's a huge myth, widely believed and much beloved by AIPAC. But something like a billion a year is in cash, and can be used to buy anything, and is.


a billion a year "in cash" can be used to "buy anything?" really?
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