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> Jimbo vs Bishzilla Part 1, AC manages not to discuss the issue at all
MaliceAforethought
post Wed 13th July 2011, 9:33pm
Post #1


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*************************************************************
*The "Jimbo hammer" falls: Jimmy and his club turn it into a poke at Giano *
*************************************************************
Malice's Note: Blokes almost had a good idea here. Ach, if only they could deliver.

From: rlevse (Randy Everette)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:56:23 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Now Bish too

On ANI:

<cough> Where would you like the steel toe? Bishonen
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/User:Bishonen> | talk
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/User_talk:Bishonen> 22:08,
21 May 2009 (UTC).>

What is with our admins?

r/
Randy Everette
----------

From: (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 16:58:45 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

An applicant in case I need to appoint someone. smile.gif

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Can I help?
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 19:56:33 +0100
From: Giacomo M-Z
To: Jimmy Wales

Hello Jimmy,

Things aren't looking too good are they? Blocking Bishonen was a huge
mistake, calling a little shit a little shit is what happens in the real
world, as I'm sure you know. All your actions have done is serve to
encourage every little shit from here to eternity.

Now, we have a resignation from the Arbcom and another couple up the
shoot, and the project haemoraging its veteran editors like a
haemophiliac at a knife throwing party. I'm sure there will always be
those to write pages on porn stars and their activities, but is that
what you want for Wikipedia? In truth, people like to see the long term
editors providing continuity, security and pumping out the pages on
proper subjects - or don't you agree with that?

Wikipedia needs good jolt and a shake up, and I don't mean of the happy
clappy, love each other Californian variety because quite frankly, it
has had too much of that already. I'm travelling for most of this month,
but will check mail when possible - if you ask me to join the Arbcom,
I'll accept - I have the ability to turn things around, and most
certainly will.

You don't like me, and I don't like you, but if you want what's best for
the project, I am it.

Regards and don't choke -

Giano
----------

From: (rlevse)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:07:53 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

Lovely. A disaster waiting to happen.

R
----------

From:(Kirill Lokshin)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:30:49 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> An applicant in case I need to appoint someone. smile.gif
>

The sad thing about all this is that Giano certainly isn't stupid, and can
potentially provide some very good ideas for project-level reform; but,
because he's so utterly lacking in restraint, appointing him to ArbCom would
be an unmitigated disaster. What might actually be useful here, though, is
to create some place for him where he could work on those reforms and feel
properly appreciated and "in power" without actually giving him any
authority over day-to-day events.

Perhaps you could appoint a steering committee, giving it responsibility for
developing and proposing long-term policy reforms, plans for the project as
a whole, and so forth? The body would have social influence, but no
executive power, so people like Giano couldn't really do anything dangerous
with it. And if we get a good mix of people on the committee -- some arbs,
some people from the content processes (FA, GA, etc.), some people from
major WikiProjects, some people from OTRS, some "critics" -- the thing could
actually be capable of both coming up with useful reforms and of getting
them implemented through its pervasive influence.

Kirill
----------

From: (Cas Liber)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

I do like the idea. my impression (though I might be a little optimistic), is that the status of the role would calm him down a great deal and he'd act alot more decorously. He might also vent on list and keep a much calmer exterior off it. He has a very strong sense of moral rectitude which it would be good to utilise in some role anyway
Cas
----------

From: (Marc A. Pelletier)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 18:00:47 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

Jimmy Wales wrote:
> [Giano]
> You don't like me, and I don't like you, but if you want what's best for
> the project, I am it.
>

He does have a very high opinion of himself, doesn't he?

-- Coren / Marc
----------

From: (John Vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:01:26 +1000
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Cas Liber wrote:
> I do like the idea. my impression (though I might be a little optimistic),
> is that the status of the role would calm him down a great deal and he'd act
> alot more decorously. He might also vent on list and keep a much calmer
> exterior off it. He has a very strong sense of moral rectitude which it
> would be good to utilise in some role anyway

I am all for the idea.

And I recall reading the arbs discussing it at length in 2008, and I
think he was considered again in 2009 when Kirill mentioned the idea
of an [[Admonitor (Jesuits)]].

--
John Vandenberg
----------

From: (Carcharoth)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:51:35 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Kirill Lokshin wrote:

<snip>

> Perhaps you could appoint a steering committee, giving it responsibility for
> developing and proposing long-term policy reforms, plans for the project as
> a whole, and so forth?? The body would have social?influence, but no
> executive power, so people like Giano couldn't really do anything dangerous
> with it.? And if we get a good mix of people on the committee -- some arbs,
> some people from the?content processes (FA, GA, etc.), some people from
> major WikiProjects, some people from OTRS, some "critics" -- the thing could
> actually be capable of both coming up with useful reforms and of getting
> them implemented through its pervasive influence.

Now, I'm racking my brain to work out what this sort of body is
called. Something where the members represent constituencies intended
to represent the entire breadth of the project. Some sort of council
of tribal elders.

Hang on, the word is on the tip of my tongue...

A government! :-)

Or a steering committee if you prefer.

I would prefer to see Giano on that kind of body than on ArbCom.

Carcharoth
----------

From: (Marc A. Pelletier)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 18:54:49 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

Carcharoth wrote:
>
> Hang on, the word is on the tip of my tongue...
>
> A government! :-)
>

Oh, joy! Back to one of my favorite themes.

Yes, I agree that we need a legislative body. Arbcom would be much
better off if we could concentrate on the judiciary aspect. Sorry if
the terminology ruffles feathers, but calling those roses by any other
names would smell just the same.

FWIW, I'd probably vote _for_ Giano iff he managed to keep his effing
temper under control -- at least in public.

-- Coren / Marc
----------

From: (rlevse)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 18:59:03 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

I fear it's not possible for Giano to keep his temper in check.

R
----------

From: jayvdb(John Vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:59:51 +1000
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:59 AM, <rlevse> wrote:
> I fear it's not possible for Giano to keep his temper in check.

Have you talked to him directly / privately ?

--
John Vandenberg
----------

From: (Kirill Lokshin)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 19:10:53 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Carcharoth wrote:

> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Kirill Lokshin
> <kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Perhaps you could appoint a steering committee, giving it responsibility
> for
> > developing and proposing long-term policy reforms, plans for the project
> as
> > a whole, and so forth? The body would have social influence, but no
> > executive power, so people like Giano couldn't really do anything
> dangerous
> > with it. And if we get a good mix of people on the committee -- some
> arbs,
> > some people from the content processes (FA, GA, etc.), some people from
> > major WikiProjects, some people from OTRS, some "critics" -- the thing
> could
> > actually be capable of both coming up with useful reforms and of getting
> > them implemented through its pervasive influence.
>
> Now, I'm racking my brain to work out what this sort of body is
> called. Something where the members represent constituencies intended
> to represent the entire breadth of the project. Some sort of council
> of tribal elders.
>
> Hang on, the word is on the tip of my tongue...
>
> A government! :-)
>
> Or a steering committee if you prefer.


The operative distinction between the two -- at least in the sense in which
I used "steering committee" here -- is that a true legislature can pass
binding resolutions, while the body I was proposing would merely issue
proposals and recommendations. I had in mind more of a think tank than a
government, in other words.

Kirill
----------

From: (Carcharoth)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 00:20:08 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] [Fwd: Can I help?]

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:10 AM, Kirill Lokshin
<kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> I had in mind more of a think tank than a
> government, in other words.

Think tank is good. Don't all rush for the door! :-)

Carcharoth


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RMHED
post Wed 13th July 2011, 9:51pm
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A nice little email exchange. The really wonderful thing about it, is that they all come out of it looking like arseholes.
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SpiderAndWeb
post Wed 13th July 2011, 10:33pm
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The precursor to this fiasco, I assume. Pity it was handled so ham-handedly, as it's not a bad idea per se.
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Vigilant
post Wed 13th July 2011, 10:53pm
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I love how these guys think that they are masters of political intrigue and yet even on the private mailing list they come across as basement dwellers of the first water.

They think they are going to sideline a tempestuous personality with their suave pivoting of Giano into a make work steering committee and thus solve the problem. The problem being that there is vocal dissent within the 'community' (see "little people").

They remind me of lesser versions of the worst engineers/geeks I have worked with.

An entire group of people who pose themselves thusly

Condescending Star Trek geek wannabe

Condescending without any reason to be so.
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SB_Johnny
post Thu 14th July 2011, 12:35am
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QUOTE(Vigilant @ Wed 13th July 2011, 6:53pm) *

I love how these guys think that they are masters of political intrigue and yet even on the private mailing list they come across as basement dwellers of the first water.

They think they are going to sideline a tempestuous personality with their suave pivoting of Giano into a make work steering committee and thus solve the problem. The problem being that there is vocal dissent within the 'community' (see "little people").

They remind me of lesser versions of the worst engineers/geeks I have worked with.

An entire group of people who pose themselves thusly

Condescending Star Trek geek wannabe

The poison mostly comes from the little shit who strokes their egos as part of his living. These are (mostly, if not all) just very well-meaning people with too much time on their hands and lacking a clue about where to find a worthy opportunity for volunteering. The WMF mission is rather alluring, after all.
QUOTE(Vigilant @ Wed 13th July 2011, 6:53pm) *

Condescending without any reason to be so.

Hey there Potty! Have ya met my good pal Kettle? rolleyes.gif laugh.gif
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Cla68
post Thu 14th July 2011, 12:35am
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QUOTE(Vigilant @ Wed 13th July 2011, 10:53pm) *

I love how these guys think that they are masters of political intrigue and yet even on the private mailing list they come across as basement dwellers of the first water.

They think they are going to sideline a tempestuous personality with their suave pivoting of Giano into a make work steering committee and thus solve the problem. The problem being that there is vocal dissent within the 'community' (see "little people").

They remind me of lesser versions of the worst engineers/geeks I have worked with.

An entire group of people who pose themselves thusly

Condescending Star Trek geek wannabe

Condescending without any reason to be so.


I ended up being one of those asked to serve on that steering committee, so naturally I think it was a fairly good idea. The steering committee tanked when a group of editors, led by SlimVirgin, rioted over it. A committee like that provides a mechanism for vocal critics of WP's administration to make some suggestions in a formal manner which, presumably, would be considered for implementation by the "community." I don't know if it would have worked or not because of all the different interests in WP competing with each other.
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SB_Johnny
post Thu 14th July 2011, 12:39am
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QUOTE(SpiderAndWeb @ Wed 13th July 2011, 6:33pm) *

The precursor to this fiasco, I assume. Pity it was handled so ham-handedly, as it's not a bad idea per se.

Wow, I had completely forgotten about that. The Arbcom folks really do deserve earnest pity. dry.gif
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