Rachel Marsden: The Fundamental Schizophrenia of BLP Options

[Doc glasgow]

Let's be clear. ... The COI is bullshit. I can't see anything that was done to the article that shouldn't have been done under BLP anyway. Jimbo often asks OTRS to clean things up ...

I don't know why you guys don't get it -- a reputable encyclopedia cannot be run by a "God-King". The issue may not be COI impropriety, but more the appearance of impropriety.

Jimbo's exalted status within Wikipedia, coupled with the lack of a viable and structured management system there, casts the whole enterprise into disrepute. Your arguments about BLP and whatnot ring hollow -- the differing treatment of (e.g.) Daniel Brandt and Rachel Marsden bear witness to this.

So ask for Daniel Brandt to be treated like Rachel Marsden, rather than the other way about. Although, I'd not be too sure who has the lower opinion of Jimbo.

Seriously, you guys way overstate Jimbo's current influence. You've obviously all been banned so long that you're out of touch. Keep up with it. Jimbo's influence on en.wp is marginal in the extreme, and diminishing by the day.

[gomi]

Seriously, you guys way overstate Jimbo's current influence. ... Jimbo's influence on en.wp is marginal in the extreme, and diminishing by the day.

Well, forgive us for watching, for example, the incredible corruption and ineptitude of the ArbCom, and believing that the behaviour of Wikipedia's ruling elite is the fruit of a poisonous tree.

[dogbiscuit]

Seriously, you guys way overstate Jimbo's current influence. You've obviously all been banned so long that you're out of touch. Keep up with it. Jimbo's influence on en.wp is marginal in the extreme, and diminishing by the day.

His overt influence has diminished, of that there is no doubt. However, he still has his chums doing his bidding, and the 'inability to get things right in a crisis management system' he put in place is still in full flow, so his actual influence is quite strong. His influence will be really diminished when (ok, if) some sensible management structures are put in place which remove the influence of the old guard.

[Kato]

BLPs are not news aggregaters. Because it's newsworthy this week doesn't make it encyclopedic.

Well the thing is, they are. That is the beast Jimbo himself has created and encouraged himself. You are just 12 months or so behind people like me in coming to terms with that. There is nothing you can do about it and you are standing on the shore fighting against the sea. See this blog post

http://wikipediareview.com/blog/20080121/2...h-the-red-pill/

[jorge]

Seriously, you guys way overstate Jimbo's current influence. You've obviously all been banned so long that you're out of touch. Keep up with it. Jimbo's influence on en.wp is marginal in the extreme, and diminishing by the day.

His overt influence has diminished, of that there is no doubt. However, he still has his chums doing his bidding, and the 'inability to get things right in a crisis management system' he put in place is still in full flow, so his actual influence is quite strong. His influence will be really diminished when (ok, if) some sensible management structures are put in place which remove the influence of the old guard.

I beg to disagree Mr. DocG. JzG and JoshuaZ intervened per his "suggestion"- we all know they will do whatever he suggests, being two of the most brainwashed cult members. If Wales can be bribed through sex to alter a biography, why should we believe he cannot be bribed with money or gifts?

[Doc glasgow]

/Sigh/, those who wish to see conspiracy, will always bend reality to that end......

The last time Jimbo intervened on en.wp (over rollback) he was simply ignored by the community and arbcom, and contradicted by Florence. But, I suppose you guys need your Emmanuel Goldstein to hate.

This post has been edited by Doc glasgow: Tue 4th March 2008, 1:23am

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Seriously, you guys way overstate Jimbo's current influence. You've obviously all been banned so long that you're out of touch. Keep up with it. Jimbo's influence on en.wp is marginal in the extreme, and diminishing by the day.

I don't think that's true. Even if Jimbo doesn't do work or exert himself, he is still displacing whatever leadership would fill his shoes if he stepped aside, much like dead wood. And then there is 'leadership by example', where others find it rational to emulate him.

Sorry, no better way to put this, but you just can't polish a turd. You end up with everyone covered in shit.

This post has been edited by Pumpkin Muffins: Tue 4th March 2008, 2:18am

[Kato]

Seriously, you guys way overstate Jimbo's current influence. You've obviously all been banned so long that you're out of touch. Keep up with it. Jimbo's influence on en.wp is marginal in the extreme, and diminishing by the day.

Nonsense. Why the hell did JzG suddenly appear at the article in February out of the blue? The same date the tip off said Jimbo arranged to have the Marsden article "fixed".

Have you had your porridge today? You are living in cloud cuckoo land Doc. Wake up laddie.

[GlassBeadGame]

Let's be clear.

1) I don't care who Jimbo has sex with - so he may be a letch, did I expect more? 2) The COI is bullshit. I can't see anything that was done to the article that shouldn't have been done under BLP anyway. Jimbo often asks OTRS to clean things up - and WR is at its best when in complains that cleanups don't happen quickly enough - not when it complains they happen too quickly.

3) The story is certainly news now. Not so much because it is sex, but because Mr Wiki (apparently) had the ill-judgement to dump neo-celebrity on wiki and she (predictably) retaliated (on e-bay). That's news that not even the London Times can resist. And this story probably has legs yet. It will almost certainly end up in Jimmy's bio. But (and this is something I fight for on many bios) BLPs are not news aggregaters. Because it's newsworthy this week doesn't make it encyclopedic. Whether this story has any durable importance in terms of recording Wales's bio, remains to be seen.

My guess is that Danny's allegations will prove more significant. But that's a guess, and till Jimmy and the WMF respond (as they must) we won't know what that significance is. WP:NOT a crystal ball etc.

Will any of this be significant in a week? Who knows? we can only speculate?

Anyway, the discussion will no doubt continue here (and on the official mailing lists .... if I can find it?) ....

What will be more lasting and damaging than the COI or financial improprieties is the re-establishing the link between Mr. Wales' current undertakings and the Bomis pornography era. This will demonstrate that Wales has not changed. It will hamper his effort to re-cast Bomis as something other than pornography. It will undermine WMF credibility as a non-profit. The taint will rub off on Wikia, which is dependent upon good faith generated by Wikipedia.

Also, please don't invoke WP:NONSENSE as it is considered bad form around here.

[Milton Roe]

Ceraurus and Arthur Ellis are both Journalism prof Mark Bourrie and have been much banned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...se/Arthur_Ellis
He's a friend of Marsden's and when he isn't shilling for her he's pursuing his feud with Warren Kinsella - generally by vandalising his article. IRL Kinsella has sued Bourrie and won a settlement of some sort.

SlimVirgin's role in the article is interesting.

It's interesting? Yeah, but it's pretty familiar. SV's role here is simply to sanitize things with fire when investigative reporters or editors (usually certain types with a past who remind her of herself) get into touble on Wikipedia.

That's nice. I'm glad SV can empathize with one narrow segment of the population. Her problem is that she can't seem to empathize with anybody else, and does real damage in the process of protecting her own nest of the poor picked-on.

Until SV develops full humanity and a little less paranoia, I would vote that she be de-fanged (not that this is likely to happen). But so long as I'm fantasizing, I'd like to see that horrible face stuck on the back of her head, Valdemort375, to be blasted out of power along with her.

Throwing Some Philosopher's Stones,

--Harry

[thekohser]

Let's be clear.

1) ...Jimbo often asks OTRS to clean things up - and WR is at its best when in complains that cleanups don't happen quickly enough - not when it complains they happen too quickly.

Yes, Doc, let's be clear. The "clean up" that JzG executed on the Rachel Marsden article was this: he removed a reliable source citation that stated Marsden's male counterpart in their affair had been exonerated by his police department.

And that improved the encyclopedia, how?

The only way I can think is that it made Marsden look better and it cast doubt on her antagonist, the Canadian constable. Is that what Jimbo wanted before he got busy in the hotel with her, or is that what JzG thought was important that night, logging into Wikipedia from England to edit on a biography centered on one of "his" Commonwealth nations?

Keep talking, Doc. Your hole is tapping into the Earth's mantle now. See if you can go for the core.

Greg

[Ior]

Seriously, you guys way overstate Jimbo's current influence. You've obviously all been banned so long that you're out of touch. Keep up with it. Jimbo's influence on en.wp is marginal in the extreme, and diminishing by the day.

If you ask me, it is Jimmy Wales who is out of touch (with the community). As to his influence, the only thing that has changed in that regard is the transparency in which he communicates his requests, using backchannels like IRC and private mailing lists rather than on-wiki discussion. And believe me, we're not all banned. Some of us have been admins for years.

This post has been edited by Ior: Tue 4th March 2008, 2:55am

[AB]

2) The COI is bullshit. I can't see anything that was done to the article that shouldn't have been done under BLP anyway. Jimbo often asks OTRS to clean things up - and WR is at its best when in complains that cleanups don't happen quickly enough - not when it complains they happen too quickly.

They aren't complaining that the clean-up happened
'too quickly'. They are complaining about the
hypocrisy. As in, would RM's bio have been cleaned
up if she had not done so much to win Jimbo's favour?
Certainly, if she goes that far, she deserves whatever
she gets. But she shouldn't have to go that far, it
should be her right as a human being, whether she is
Jimbo's lover or his most vocal enemy.

If Jimbo's article were held to the same low standards
as many other bios, perhaps he would be encouraged
to strengthen the BLP policy across the board. For
example, implement an opt-out policy.

[Kato]

The whole place is tragically hypocritical and inconsistent. See the Joe Lieberman affair

http://wikipediareview.com/blog/20071231/m...-to-washington/

...where Wales appeared before a Senate Committee hearing held by Joe Lieberman. Wales protected Lieberman's article for the duration, then unprotected it afterwards, where it continued to receive an onslaught of damaging vandalism.

He only cared about his own image there. Afterwards he couldn't give a crap what his website asserted about Lieberman.

[Milton Roe]

In the name of the Unforgettable Butterflies, stop
comparing women to domestic animals!

Right. Compare MEN to domestic animals. Since that is basically what they are-- woman's last domesticated animal. (Okay, I stole that from Will Durant). Now, peace, you two. I've lived long enough to know that neither sex objectifies the other, more than the other (was that clear?). They just do it in different ways. And if they didn't do some of it, none of us would be here, since it's a rough world out there, and not enough time or opportunity to make really good but crucial decisions, on what scanty data there is. Agreed?

--Milt

[Somey]

What he said!

Still, Giano could have just as easily compared "picking a mistress" to choosing a good exercise bike, and it really wouldn't have changed the sentence's tone or meaning all that much.

What's more, I know lots of women who have an enormous amount of respect for exercise bikes.

Of course, every time *I* choose a mistress, I get the same reaction, which is basically "who the hell are you?" followed by threats to get a so-called "restraining order." Sheesh!

[Miltopia]

Maybe we could all have a lesson on what a "simile" is and then stop the oversensitive BS in favor of discussing Wikipedia...

[Moulton]

Of all the news coverage, I thought the WiReD article zeroed in on the real story — not the dalliance, but how it was funded.

[guy]

But, I suppose you guys need your Emmanuel Goldstein to hate.

Emmanuel Goldstein was completely out of power; the correct analogy is with Larry Sanger.

Still, if you think Jimbo is Emmanuel Goldstein , who is Big Brother?

[AB]

In the name of the Unforgettable Butterflies, stop
comparing women to domestic animals!

:P Right. Compare MEN to domestic animals. Since that is basically what they are-- woman's last domesticated animal. (Okay, I stole that from Will Durant).

Yeah, right. In the past, I've hardly even been able
to convince the guys I've had sex with to take the
time to date me, even if I offered to pay.

Now, peace, you two. I've lived long enough to know that neither sex objectifies the other, more than the other (was that clear?). They just do it in different ways. And if they didn't do some of it, none of us would be here, since it's a rough world out there, and not enough time or opportunity to make really good but crucial decisions, on what scanty data there is. Agreed?

--Milt

I have loved each and every man with whom I
have consented to sexual relations. The love
never lasted, though, because it was never
returned.

Maybe other women objectify the men they
sleep with, but that doesn't mean I do.