Searching for LaRouche under the bed Options

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Careful, HK - given that the ADL is a Jewish organisation, you're bordering on anti-Semitism here.

The ADL is a very complicated organization that engages in all sorts of activity, much of it covert. The "Jewish charity" side of it is strictly a cover story, and an appallingly cynical one at that, because by claiming to fight anti-Semitism, and thereby branding its critics, by implication, as anti-Semites, they trivialize real anti-Semitism (see this section of the Wikipedia article on ADL critic Norman Finkelstein.)

Even the Wikipedia article on the ADL, which has been sanitized and then sanitized again by Jayjg and co., contains this section, which Daniel alluded to earlier. This particular controversy should help indicate that the ADL is involved in a whole lot of stuff that has nothing to do with Jews or Judaism.

To put the matter in a nutshell, when the US Congress put an end to COINTELPRO, the policy of harassment of political organizations by the FBI and CIA, those latter organizations simply privatized it, farming it out to the ADL in particular. There is more that could be said about this matter, but I think that this is sufficient. I'd like to keep this thread from going too far off topic.

[Yehudi]

All sorts of people collaborated with South Africa - left, right and neither. If it weren't for the ADL, America would be a nastier place. They've done far more to uproot nasty Internet practices than they've ever done themselves. (I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but one does have to be pragmatic at times.)

And unlike Guy, I'm no friend of Lady Symons, but she can't be described as right-wing.


This post has been edited by Yehudi: Mon 19th February 2007, 10:34pm

[nobs]

If it weren't for the ADL, America would be a nastier place. They've done far more to uproot nasty Internet practices than they've ever done themselves. (I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but one does have to be pragmatic at times.)

I agree very much with this. Let's not run ahead of the discussion too much -- more groundwork needs to be laid.

This document, which is very Malthusian in character, says

...a positive and proactive propaganda distribution programme, and amelioration through direct action...

It's hard to find better language for "the sum total of human knowledge"; but there are limits to how many victims will be unwittingly labelled with invidious smears through this direct action. The problems are too manifold and manifest without some serious reconsideration of what has already been done here, and the direction this is proceeding which masticates even people of good will. And this work of profiling can't be hidden, not in the United States, not without blowback.

[Somey]

"Masticates"?

[nobs]

"Masticates"?

Yah, chews up, devours, etc.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

I'm no friend of Lady Symons, but she can't be described as right-wing.

Suppose we just settle on "spooky," then?

I am hard pressed to think of contemporary politicians that I would think of as being genuinely "left." I would expect some inclination to Marxism, or at least a pronounced interest in the plight of the poor. The plight of the poor is becoming more excruciating by the day, and I don't find environmentalism or "identity politics" to be of much comfort under the circumstances.

[nobs]

I am hard pressed to think of contemporary politicians that I would think of as being genuinely "left." I would expect some inclination to Marxism, or at least a pronounced interest in the plight of the poor. The plight of the poor is becoming more excruciating by the day, and I don't find environmentalism or "identity politics" to be of much comfort under the circumstances.

So HK, would you say your outlook is similiar to these Malthusian statements from the pre-Patriot Act, pre-Wikipedia, policy proposal to HMG, Nazism, the Internet and Culture of Violence?

...a similar lack of social investment to aid the workforce in NATO countries in adjusting to world market changes affecting their economies is yielding ...similar fascist uprisings by a disgruntled, fragmented and equally violent sections of the populace, principally amongst the self perceived "disenfranchised" of the middle classes...

...fascist uprisings do not follow the blueprint of working class revolutions, as fascist uprising and subversive activity originates in the ranks of the middle and thus managerial classes of society... Only normative InterNet usage by the international fascist movement as the C4I tool of choice makes effectual centreless leadership, rendering it extremely difficult (though possible) for security services to lawfully predict future actions ...

The aim of ... policy formulation on a fact based bottom up level derived from the data at hand rather than strategic theoretical down style deployment of intelligence gathering forces toward determining empirically the actionable extent of what appears at first sight to be a passing youth fashion espoused by atavistic eccentrics and Hitler buffs ....

...the USA view on a near-unanimous basis by both the government and the populace is that the First Amendment (governing freedom of speech) to the US Constitution grants those who are of the Nazi persuasion the inalienable right to advocate this form of mass murder on the InterNet, in the press, and through public presentation and lecture. Thus it should come as no surprise that the embracing of Nazism worldwide as a fourth option (after capitalist republicanism, communism, and parliamentary democracy) for solving the problems of contemporary political and economic existence is first and foremost a distinctly American funded and U.S. Constitution-underwritten enterprise. Nazism is as popular an American export as Disney lunchboxes, rap music, $200.00 sneakers, pornography, mindlessly violent videos, televangelism, and crack cocaine....says more ... than outright condemns those searching for solutions from whatever quarter they might arise to the horrible economic disequilibria & unfair absurdities on display in plain view of the production line labourer, temporary service worker and the common foot soldier.

This post has been edited by nobs: Tue 20th February 2007, 2:23am

[Herschelkrustofsky]

[guy]

Suppose we just settle on "spooky," then?

I can only say that I have never found her so. And since this isn't Wikipedia, we're allowed to quote personal knowledge!

I am hard pressed to think of contemporary politicians that I would think of as being genuinely "left."

Doesn't that depend on where you're standing?

Of course, there's always George Galloway, though some would argue that he illustrates beautifully how the far left and the far right have more in common than they care to admit.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

this disambig page.

I am hard pressed to think of contemporary politicians that I would think of as being genuinely "left."

Doesn't that depend on where you're standing?

Of course, there's always George Galloway, though some would argue that he illustrates beautifully how the far left and the far right have more in common than they care to admit.

I am unfamiliar with Mr. Galloway. Why would some argue that? I will also say, cautiously, that Ken Livingstone appears to me to be a fairly legitimately "left" sort of guy. I have not followed his career carefully, but he seems to annoy Tony Blair quite a lot, which earns him points with me.

Incidentally, LaRouche is not what is normally considered "left," although he once was. He has spent the past thirty years reviving what was once called the "American System," which does not advocate public ownership (outside of major infrastructure,) but does advocate extensive government regulation of anything that affects the national interest, including transportation, health care, banking and finance, electric utilities, and telecommunications. He refers to Lincoln and FDR as examples of successful policy. The "American System" is regarded by its proponents as a successful alternative to two failed options, Laissez-faire capitalism and Marxism. I believe there are some establishment types who wish to suppress the idea that there is an alternative to these two failed systems.

I think that it is significant that this is the area where the Wikipedia Cabal has the most intense paranoia about LaRouche, and it reinforces my suspicion that Jimbo and his POV are at the root of the whole thing. The articles where there have been fights and accusations of "LaRouchism," without LaRouche ever being mentioned or cited in the article, include:

Privatization
Free Trade
Laissez-faire
Deregulation
Dirigisme

The biggest fight was over an article that at one time did briefly mention LaRouche, which was "American System (economics)". I'm not sure what became of that article; I think that Will Beback may have deleted it. It's now a redirect to this disambig page.. I tried to find the page history of the pre-redirected article, and the earliest version on record is this one, which Northmeister somehow reconstructed after the much more extensive, older article was apparently deleted. Maybe someone who understands the intricacies of Wikipedia better than I can figure out what actually happened to this article.

[nobs]

I think that it is significant that this is the area where the Wikipedia Cabal has the most intense paranoia about LaRouche, and it reinforces my suspicion that Jimbo and his POV are at the root of the whole thing.

HK: I posted an account of the LaRouche/John Train Salon matter here

[Herschelkrustofsky]

HK: I posted an account of the LaRouche/John Train Salon matter here

That's not "an account," that's your Nobsian commentary on the matter. But at least you put it in the Nobs thread.

[nobs]

There was a criminal case in California in 1993-94, which led to a stack of intelligence files getting confiscated, and these were available to the press. At the time I got a set of these files and read them. Berlet traded information with the ADL, and one ADL official said that Berlet and Political Research Associates had been very helpful in monitoring right-wing groups. Berlet would even pose as a right-winger and infiltrate right-wing meetings. For more information on the spying case in California, search for Tom Gerard and/or Roy Bullock on Yahoo or Google.

Here's some of the sources on the San Fransisco Spy Case.

http://mail.google.com/mail/?ik=7efaa0dba4...88427&attid=0.1

What was striking about the ADL "enemies list" was that most of the individuals and organizations listed were of leftist persuasion.... such as the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Conference of Black Lawyers, the Black United Front, the Center for Investigative Reporting, the Asian Law Caucus, and the San Francisco Anti-Apartheid Committee ...

Dennis J. Opatrny and Scott Winocur, Police Said 10 Aid Spying On Political Groups, San Francisco Examiner (9 March 1993).

0patrny and Winocur, A New Target In S.F. Spy Probe, San Francisco Examiner (1 April 1993).

Richard C. Paddock, Spy: 40 Years of Undercover Work For ADL, Los Angeles Times (13 April 1993).

More than a few Jewish officials privately say that the ADL has to decide whether it is a human rights group or a secret police agency.

Robert J. Friedman, The Anti-Defamation League is Spying On You, Village Voice (11 May 1993).

This post has been edited by nobs: Wed 21st February 2007, 2:07am

[omobomo]

I am hard pressed to think of contemporary politicians that I would think of as being genuinely "left."

Doesn't that depend on where you're standing?

Of course, there's always George Galloway, though some would argue that he illustrates beautifully how the far left and the far right have more in common than they care to admit.

Only if one is a knee-jerk supporter of the state of Israel and its policies.

[Somey]

Only if one is a knee-jerk supporter of the state of Israel and its policies.

Not necessarily. I've heard people also make this argument who were only stated supporters of the knees of Israel and its jerks.

[guy]

Of course, there's always George Galloway, though some would argue that he illustrates beautifully how the far left and the far right have more in common than they care to admit.

Only if one is a knee-jerk supporter of the state of Israel and its policies.

I don't follow the logic of that.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Of course, there's always George Galloway, though some would argue that he illustrates beautifully how the far left and the far right have more in common than they care to admit.

Only if one is a knee-jerk supporter of the state of Israel and its policies.

I don't follow the logic of that.

I ask this hesitantly, out of curiosity, but keeping my fingers crossed and hoping it doesn't lead to a major, contentious off-topic excursion: what, in your view, is George Galloway's problem, and how does it "illustrate beautifully how the far left and the far right have more in common than they care to admit"?

[nobs]

...when the US Congress put an end to COINTELPRO, the policy of harassment of political organizations by the FBI and CIA, those latter organizations simply privatized it, farming it out to the ADL in particular

HK: I’m going to question your premise: COINTELPRO targeted many groups and organizations which had sympathy and common overlapping interests with ADL. This is like saying, “When the FBI ended its investigation of the Cali Cartel, it farmed it out to the Cali Cartel”. See for example Daniel Brandt,

In 1956 COINTELPRO began against the Communist Party USA [CPUSA] … in 1968 the "New Left" … the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) ... documents [revealed] ...specially-trained teams of agents burglarized their offices at least 92 times …

FBI/ADL cooperation didn’t begin until the Reagan administration when the FBI issued a memoranda to all SACs (Special Agent in Charge) in cities ADL had field offices:

Federal Bureau of Investigation, AIRTEL dated 4 February 1985, Subject: Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (ADL) Information Concerning Civil Rights Violations.

The ADL began to supply FBI with information on hate groups like the Klan, militias, training manuals how to detect and identify, or profile, “domestic terrorists”, like the Wise Use movement, and trips to Isreal to coordinate with Mossad.

I think that it is significant that this is the area where the Wikipedia Cabal has the most intense paranoia about LaRouche, and it reinforces my suspicion that Jimbo and his POV are at the root of the whole thing.

HK, take off your conspiracy hat and look at the objective evidence you’ve stumbled into. It’s an unwritten policy you won’t find even in the bylaws. But I’ll grant Jimbo deniability, like Reagan falling asleep at cabinet meetings while underlings do the dirty work of ideological profiling and smearing with invidious labels.

This post has been edited by nobs: Wed 21st February 2007, 6:12pm

[guy]

I ask this hesitantly, out of curiosity, but keeping my fingers crossed and hoping it doesn't lead to a major, contentious off-topic excursion: what, in your view, is George Galloway's problem, and how does it "illustrate beautifully how the far left and the far right have more in common than they care to admit"?

Galloway is so far left that he was not welcome in the Labour Party, even the Scottish Labour Party, which is far less New Labour than the English one. So he started his own "Respect" party. He supports all sorts of brutal totalitarian regimes, such as Belarus and Turkmenistan, that most left-wingers recoil from in horror. He won his parliamentary seat from a charming black lady called Oona King, in a vicious campaign that used sexism and racism against her in a way that would make the most hard-line Conservative blush. I suppose some would say that she demonstrated her inability at politics by being unable to sink to his level in reply.

[Daniel Brandt]

I like George Galloway.