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Disillusioned Lackey
Her response to someone asking her about the Tim H affair

QUOTE
I have removed your personal attack, but am willing to reply to the allegations. That press secretary repeatedly blanked entire sections of referenced material from two different biographies. Site policy calls that vandalism. At the time when I reported that action I did not know who had performed those edits, nor was it possible to determine the person's identity on a technical basis. The United States House of Representatives IT configuration routes all 435 congressional offices through the same IP addresses. Tennessee has 10 representatives and hundreds of staffers. More than that, the particular IP address I chose as an example had scores of prior warnings and blocks and had been the very same IP address that had caused the 2006 congressional editing scandal, which had made national news and had led to pledges from several congressional representatives to implement better policies regarding their staff use of Wikipedia.

What happened was that some people in the Tennessee political blogosphere recognized that those two particular biographies had a common trait: one biography was a congressman and the other was a state legislator, and the state legislator's brother was press secretary to the congressman. A political reporter followed up on those rumors and called the press secretary, who admitted on the record that he had made those edits.

After that staffer had already gone on record the reporter contacted me. I referred him to the Foundation, contacted Cary Bass and Jimbo Wales, and eventually went on record myself. All of the information I had gleaned from Wikipedia was already public record, available to anyone on the planet who had the knowledge and skills to look for it.

As a result of that inadvertent act of whistleblowing, the staffer was referred to ethics training. It was the second time that fellow had received orders to enter formal ethics training at that job. He announced his resignation last month and made no mention of Wikipedia.

The article I had written that started the thing was an effort at outreach to public relations professionals that explained how to avoid serious PR risks at Wikipedia. It got published before the WikiScanner came out, at a time when most people looked at me like I was from Mars when I explained that there were real PR risks from unethical participation here. So a few examples were necessary and I chose the safest ones I could find. I learned afterward that the material that press secretary had tried to conceal was actually a political hot potato in Tennessee: both legislators had accepted donations from a controversial executive in the pharmaceuticals industry. Properly cited information of that type is the sort of thing voters usually like to find when they come to this site to learn about their elected representatives. My article completely nonpartisan; I selected examples from both parties. DurovaCharge! 08:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:24.18.134.216"


Yes, but you dumb, dumb bunny.... the material which the man deleted was partisan material placed on all Tennessee Republican party members recently by a guy (or a couple of guys) from the pro-life lobby, who were angry that the Republicans were being given funds by pharmaceutical companies (nothing special, even Hillary Clinton takes money from them, and most candidates take money from businesses, and if it isn't outside legal bounds, it should not be the major issue on their Wikipedia page)....

... Tim H. found one of these bla bla blah sections on his brother and boss's page (it was also on about 3 other TN politicos pages, but he noticed it on the two he had a relationship to) he erased it, and Durova printed it up as "blanking vandalism" and "trying to hide a relationship between pharmaceutical companies by politicians". Later, the same guy who probably wrote the stuff wrote all over her talk page, hoping to get her involved in more smears, and someone made comment that the guy was partisan. Did she care? Not a bit.

She'd done her 'bit', got a guy badmouthed for nothing (editing a page which had no warnings) and now she claims that because she also mentioned Democrats in a totally unrelated case, that she is being fair?

I don't care what her vocabulary skills are, or whatever. She is simply not smart at all.
Moulton
It occurs to me that taking time out for some education in ethics would be a good idea for everyone, including the members of the Inner Cabal.
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Moulton @ Tue 25th December 2007, 4:47am) *

It occurs to me that taking time out for some education in ethics would be a good idea for everyone, including the members of the Inner Cabal.


See, the problem is that these people feel quite ethical.

Durova reminds me very much of a police officer who wants very much that criminals who break the law should be punished.

The problem is that WP rules are not laws, and even in the case of real laws, and real jurisdictional systems, there is such a thing as DUE PROCESS as well as consistency and clearly stated rules for operation (ie laws) which make the system not rigged to trip up people. On Wikipedia, the rules are not clear, people like Durova treat the hidden rules like laws and the hapless rule breakers as if they were criminals.

Which is why she feels completely justified in helping them lose their jobs, or reputations, or what have you.

Why does she do this? It isn't a lack of intelligence, or learning, or even as someone suggested, a mental deficiency. She has undealt-with-issues, that she's putting on other people.

This is textbook stuff.

Parents do it to their kids all the time. Political leaders do it to populations. Durova and her ilk are doing it to people on Wikipedia.

It is tragic. But the light of day makes it less feasible, and for that we can all be grateful.

Merry Christmas!
Moulton
When it comes to thinking about Crime and Punishment, a lot of people have a HOLE in their head.
Proabivouac
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Tue 25th December 2007, 7:12pm) *

The problem is that WP rules are not laws, and even in the case of real laws, and real jurisdictional systems, there is such a thing as DUE PROCESS as well as consistency and clearly stated rules for operation (ie laws) which make the system not rigged to trip up people. On Wikipedia, the rules are not clear, people like Durova treat the hidden rules like laws and the hapless rule breakers as if they were criminals.

They don't even necessarily follow the rules where they are perfectly clear, per the common willful misreading of IAR. Thus, you're denied recourse to the law - the only protection you can ever have is the assurance that those in charge of enforcing them are (for now) on your side.

Wikiepdia, so we're told, is "not a system of law." Isn't the flip side of this cop-out that its rules are devoid of the social or moral content that would oblige anyone to follow them?
Moulton
Wikipedia is devoid of best practices.

But then so was the comparable regime of King John, prior to the advent of the Magna Carta.
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Wed 26th December 2007, 5:52pm) *

They don't even necessarily follow the rules where they are perfectly clear, per the common willful misreading of IAR. Thus, you're denied recourse to the law - the only protection you can ever have is the assurance that those in charge of enforcing them are (for now) on your side.

Wikiepdia, so we're told, is "not a system of law." Isn't the flip side of this cop-out that its rules are devoid of the social or moral content that would oblige anyone to follow them?


This is a perfectly valid question, and in fact, no, the fact that Wikipedia rules are not laws does not mean that they are free from social or moral responsibility.

Corporations struggled with this one for a while, and came 'round to the point where legal and social opinion weighed them towards a stance of (mostly) more proactive behavior towards the responsible side.

Wikipedia, with it's Jimbo-heavy role, and "perceived" freedom from legal retribution ("perceived" being a ironical reference to Mr. Wales "perceived" usage in his recent IRC "declaration) is facing some of those same struggles. What makes Wikipedia's challenges more compelling is the heavy reliance of the opinion of a man who feels that... (well, let's skip that thread....), the legal confusion of online legal treatment, the lack of awareness of the general public of Wikipedia practices, and the age-level of the general Wikipedian.

Things will roll around. They always do. But in the meantime, I anticipate more "blood on the wall" episodes of adolescent behavior, irregardless of the real age of the propagant.
Moulton
It boils down to an appalling lack of ethical standards for an enterprise that purports to be creating a respectable encyclopedia.
Disillusioned Lackey
Forget the encyclopedia.

I'd focus on the public nuisance and harassment aspect before worrying about it being a legitimate piece of material.

The latter can't be possible while the former is the case.
Moulton
More and more, the site is operating as if it were an MMPORG, where the participants are out for blood and playing for keeps.
Proabivouac
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Thu 27th December 2007, 11:51pm) *

Wikipedia, with it's Jimbo-heavy role, and "perceived" freedom from legal retribution…

I am not convinced that Wikipedia's claim to immunity under sec. 230 would survive, if you'll excuse me, the WP:DUCK test…such a defense would entail claiming that all representations of WP as an "encyclopedia" are just a gimmick to sell what is really a social networking site providing an "interactive computer service." Since this defense claims that WP is dishonest to the public and to its volunteer contributors (who are now repackaged as the beneficiaries of the "interactive computer service" provider), the question suggests itself: is WP lying to the public and their contributors, as they say, or are they lying to the judge to falsely claim immunity from responsibility for what they publish?
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Fri 28th December 2007, 12:47am) *

QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Thu 27th December 2007, 11:51pm) *

Wikipedia, with it's Jimbo-heavy role, and "perceived" freedom from legal retribution…

I am not convinced that Wikipedia's claim to immunity under sec. 230 would survive, if you'll excuse me, the WP:DUCK test…such a defense would entail claiming that all representations of WP as an "encyclopedia" are just a gimmick to sell what is really a social networking site providing an "interactive computer service." Since this defense claims that WP is dishonest to the public and to its volunteer contributors (who are now repackaged as the beneficiaries of the "interactive computer service" provider), the question suggests itself: is WP lying to the public and their contributors, as they say, or are they lying to the judge to falsely claim immunity from responsibility for what they publish?


The problem is that the decision makers can't wrap their heads around what a social networking site is, what a chat board is, and for God's sake certainly not what Wikipedia REALLY is, and how it functions. At best, they look at the rule book and say "hey, it looks like they have it together" (which is why the Germans dropped the Nazi case two weeks ago).

So whereas you may be correct, I don't see a clear implementation in proving that Wikipedia is a sham of an encyclopedia, and that section 230 is being overly generous to it, inappropriately so, unless you want to make a full stop crusade to that effect. Which is a do-able job, but the pay would suck. smile.gif
CaptainMidnight
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Thu 27th December 2007, 9:16pm) *
Forget the encyclopedia.

I'd focus on the public nuisance and harassment aspect before worrying about it being a legitimate piece of material.

The latter can't be possible while the former is the case.

Sounds about right to me.
Yehudi
QUOTE(Moulton @ Fri 28th December 2007, 2:33am) *

the site is operating as if it were an MMPORG,

as if it were?
Moulton
In a real MMPORG, you get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th life, etc, until you get bored with the game.

On Wikipedia, they annihilate you for keeps.
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Moulton @ Fri 28th December 2007, 7:56am) *

In a real MMPORG, you get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th life, etc, until you get bored with the game.

On Wikipedia, they annihilate you for keeps.



No way... either you do sockpuppeting, or they claim you do sockpuppeting, and your image is resurrected in the name of various hapless innocent IPs and newbies. cool.gif

Ask wikipediareview.

There aren't enough hours in the day to sock as much as he's accused of.
thekohser
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Thu 27th December 2007, 6:51pm) *

... irregardless ...


wacko.gif
Disillusioned Lackey

irregardless

Can't believe you are fussing about this word. wacko.gif
guy
Oh come on,, let's have a reliable source.

irregardless
CaptainMidnight
QUOTE(Moulton @ Fri 28th December 2007, 8:56am) *
In a real MMPORG, you get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th life, etc, until you get bored with the game.

On Wikipedia, they annihilate you for keeps.

They can try... ph34r.gif
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