[07-12-22 00.25] <Doc_glasgow> gosh, first we have Tony_Sidaway in here, now we have lar , and then there's FT2 and whatever the hell wikipedia reviewis accusing him of doing/being - we are in for some low talk
[07-12-22 00.25] <Doc_glasgow>
[07-12-22 00.25] <Tony_Sidaway> Doc_glasgow: I'm nearly always here.
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> doc - the guy on WR is the guy who tried trolling the arbelections. Its on my arb election vote page, the Q&A's he asked.
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> But when he was stopped from doing it he went nuclear off site, so I figure let him have his speech
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> its his right. Its not harming anyone
[07-12-22 00.26] <DarkFalls> FT2: Link plz?
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> ignore
[07-12-22 00.26] <Tony_Sidaway> BADSITES!!!!
[07-12-22 00.27] <Tony_Sidaway> :@)
[07-12-22 00.27] <FT2> df, honest, its not important. The page was deleted by the arb overseers, or something.
[07-12-22 00.27] <DarkFalls> Tony_Sidaway: I was about to accuse him of that after he showed me... ;p
[07-12-22 00.27] <Doc_glasgow> FT2: I didn't read it, I just saw the word "Zoophilia" and went "ooooo!"
[07-12-22 00.27] <DarkFalls> you ruined my fun
[07-12-22 00.27] <FT2> * nods
[07-12-22 00.27] <FT2> You want the 10 second version?
[07-12-22 00.27] <Doc_glasgow> FT2: I honestly didn't read it
[07-12-22 00.28] <Tony_Sidaway> Zoolander? Oh I loved that. "Freak gasoline fight accident"
[07-12-22 00.28] <DarkFalls> Doc_glasgow: You went oooo after you saw zoophilia? O.O
[07-12-22 00.28] <Doc_glasgow> they are full of shit
[07-12-22 00.28] <FT2> The guy had a mediation, he didnt like the answer, it was a year ago, he went nuts, and had an apoplectic fit someone would mention working on articles like that
[07-12-22 00.28] <FT2> not thinking those articles have admin attention due to their problems
[07-12-22 00.28] * Tony_Sidaway sends everybod a blipvert of his past six months and watches brains explode.
[07-12-22 00.28] <FT2> a lot of fiction... but its not important
[07-12-22 00.29] <Tony_Sidaway> Fiction friction fuction function faction, it's all Wikipedia.
[07-12-22 00.29] <FT2> seriously, does anyone want the story, or not important?
[07-12-22 00.29] <Tony_Sidaway> Do it
[07-12-22 00.29] <FT2> okies.
[07-12-22 00.29] <FT2> long & short...
[07-12-22 00.30] <FT2> (brbr door, 2 mins)
[07-12-22 00.30] -->| Until1is2 (i=SomeFool@wikipedia/Until-1-equals-2) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.32] <Tony_Sidaway> I'm going to eat some chocolate cake.
[07-12-22 00.32] <FT2> back
[07-12-22 00.32] <FT2> sorry
[07-12-22 00.33] |<-- MaxSem has left irc.freenode.net (Connection timed out)
[07-12-22 00.34] <Dragonfly6-7> we forgive you
[07-12-22 00.35] <animum> ...but not unless you steal some of Tony's cake and give it to us.
[07-12-22 00.35] <Freya> blipvert?
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> One of the things Ive learned is, there'll always be people trying to stir dramatics. Pay too much attention and you fall into the game and take the eye off what matters.
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> So yes Im away theres a guy saying stuff. I also can point to the wiki evidence if needed that most of it's fabricated.
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> and yet, its not very important, so Im kind of going to let him to his thing, and in a few months he'll tire of it
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> so be it
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> the way of all of that kind
[07-12-22 00.38] -->| Ioeth (n=Ioeth@wikipedia/Ioeth) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.39] <Doc_glasgow> FT2: never let facts get in the way of a good "I'm a victim of the evil powerful one" story
[07-12-22 00.39] <FT2> If, as a separate matter, there is a genuine question that does matter, thats different. But that guy isnt after answers; he's had them and the evidence, and was told to quit it, and couldnt.
[07-12-22 00.39] <FT2> So that offer isnt open to him.
[07-12-22 00.40] <FT2> But the simple answer is, I edit on controversial topics... a lot of them And somethign that'll probably upset him, I plan to do so in future too.
[07-12-22 00.41] <FT2> I disclose the topics I edit on, on my user page, and have done so since 2005.
[07-12-22 00.42] <Tony_Sidaway> Freya: a blipvert is a TV ad compressed from 20 seconds down to 0.2 seconds or so. It's been known to cause explosion of the cranium.
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> and it'd be nice to have honesty but this is a guy who has little concept of it when angry. You get those. So one can't discuss. WJBScribe tried, Radiant! tried, 1==2 tried, RyanP tried...
[07-12-22 00.42] -->| libregaton (n=chatzill@wikipedia/Cimon-avaro) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> you cant
[07-12-22 00.42] <bishonen> in a few months he'll tire? you *are* talking about Peter Damian, right?
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> nods
[07-12-22 00.42] <bishonen> he's left.
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> yes.
[07-12-22 00.43] -->| JodyB (n=chatzill@wikipedia/jodyb) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> he's still trying to find an audience elsewhere
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> but thats okay, its his right
[07-12-22 00.43] |<-- cparham has left irc.freenode.net ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]")
[07-12-22 00.43] <bishonen> do you really think it's right to spread yourself about his bad character here, where he can't reply?
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> bottle it up, to some people it just proves they have to shout louder
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> he's that type
[07-12-22 00.44] |<-- Dragonfly6-7 has left irc.freenode.net ()
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> Its a tough one.
[07-12-22 00.44] <Tony_Sidaway> bishonen: yes, of course he does.
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> this was what prompted it
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> <Doc_glasgow> gosh, first we have Tony_Sidaway in here, now we have lar , and then there's FT2 and whatever the hell wikipedia reviewis accusing him of doing/being - we are in for some low talk
[07-12-22 00.44] <Tony_Sidaway> This is a private forum. We can talk about whatever we want to talk about.,
[07-12-22 00.44] <bishonen> i mean, i hold no brief for his accusations, but he did edit the pedia harmlessly and usefully for four years, I believe.
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> nods
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> my response was
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> But when he was stopped from doing it he went nuclear off site, so I figure let him have his speech
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> its his right. Its not harming anyone
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <DarkFalls> FT2: Link plz?
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> ignore
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> df, honest, its not important. The page was deleted by the arb overseers, or something.
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> beyond that, Im sorry if I should have shut up then
[07-12-22 00.45] <Random832> i'm bored; any dramaz?
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> and accept the comment, bish
[07-12-22 00.45] <bishonen> tony, no, we can't talk about whatever we want to talk about. we're supposed to practice decency. it's not too private for that.
[07-12-22 00.45] <Tony_Sidaway> I really cannot understand this "don't talk about a third party unless he's present" thing. Where on earth does it come from?
[07-12-22 00.45] <bishonen> from the article on this channel, is where i got it.
[07-12-22 00.45] =-= wimt is now known as wimt_away
[07-12-22 00.46] =-= carl-m|away is now known as carl-m
[07-12-22 00.46] <carl-m> how's the scc?
[07-12-22 00.46] <bishonen> but it's not "unless he's present", it's "talk as if he could hear you."
[07-12-22 00.46] <FT2> its courtesy. I'm content to accept bish's correction. It's not important anyhow. He'll tire of it.
[07-12-22 00.46] * FT2 nods - bish, that I always do.
[07-12-22 00.46] <bishonen> ft2, yes, that's cool.
[07-12-22 00.46] <FT2> we drop it then?

Whenever I'm in wikipedia IRC (or do you mean admins IRC?) they're talking about (real world) United States politics or something well boring. Only a few people are posting there in any one session where I'm watchig. None of the drama seems to happen in the normal IRC channel, that would be too easy.

When I had access to the admin channel, 95% of the stuff talked about was off-topic, and not in the slightest bit interesting. Only occasionally would anything "interesting" happen.

Well fine but I wish they wouldn't be spreading lies about me the other 5% of the time.

Why was Tony Sidaway still on there? He hadn't been an admin for like over a year.

Maybe you did not notice that the log is from December 22, 2007.

Why was Tony Sidaway still on there? He hadn't been an admin for like over a year.

Unless you have something useful to add, I would prefer that you not post. We have enough spam, and folks should check their facts first.

Pop quiz: when was Tony de-admined? A. October 2006.

Because the admin-only irc chat room is a good old boys-n-girls club where the in-crowd gets access. I think channel ops can invite whoever the hell they want.

It certainly was in the past, but I'd say things have been more recently been cleaned up to some degree (said cleanup sparked largely because of Tony's inappropriate antics). Only admins are allowed access, now, and de-sysopped admins now have their access revoked.

== IRC #admins ==
I do not wish to be slandered, or even mentioned, in your #Admin's channel again. Please ensure it does not happen in future, or it will be closed down. Most editors are thoroughly sick of it and its pernicious influence on the project. I suggest you bear that in mind and control it. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II|talk]]) 22:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

: I share your generalised concerns about abuse of the channel. As and when you have evidence of any such activity, I would greatly welcome you drawing them to my attention. However, as we have previously discussed, vague claims of you being "slandered" without context don't let me help you, and merely encourage division.
: [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 14:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

::Try reading the bloody logs of the sewer, or is it so disgusting you never go there? [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II|talk]]) 14:21, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

::: I lost regular IRC access for the past fortnight, so do not have a reliable set of logs.

::: [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 15:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

::::If you have not the energy to read the logs have this one on me for a start: How's this "<DanielB> To Giano, who invariably reads this: You are a fucking wanker." Bad enough for you? [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II|talk]]) 15:28, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

::::: Well, it's certainly not remotely close to "slander", but yes, I agree that that is completely unacceptable. I will have words with Daniel. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

::::: [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 15:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::You will be having far more than a word I can assure you. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II|talk]]) 15:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless you have something useful to add, I would prefer that you not post. We have enough spam, and folks should check their facts first.

Pop quiz: when was Tony de-admined? A. October 2006.

When you said "He hadn't been an admin for like over a year", you did not make it sound you meant "a year before the log". And December 2007 was almost one year ago.

This is no Wikipedia. Please stop bossing around like a rogue WP admin.

Thanks.

Bullshit. Read this recent comment by Giano to Forrester (the edit comment is exquisite by the way).

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=249007397

And my block was certainly shopped at irc.

Who actually is 'One'?

I was referring to the in-crowdishness being cleaned up, since adminship was established as the sole criteria for access.

Sadly, active admins in good standing can be immature too.

Who actually is 'One'?

Feh, trolling, ignore it. If he did not know that someone was systematically leaking the logs and thus making the channel useless for any kind of open discussion then I am sure Daniel would not have said a word. And for the record I would have absolutely no problem with a log available only to arbitrators, it's the passing-on of logs which are then used by detractors for the purposes of quote mining that I consider problematic. Guy (Help!) 17:18, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
|

Being a fornicating masturbator isn't so bad.

Calling someone a fucking... anything is bad and highly inappropriate. Leaking logs is also bad. Both are bad. And both should stop. Cirt (talk) 19:49, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Now made ANI. Some stellar quotes:



[did I read that right? Guy says that systematically leaking the logs makes the channel useless for any kind of open discussion What? Is he drunk? ]

[07-12-22 00.25] <Doc_glasgow> gosh, first we have Tony_Sidaway in here, now we have lar , and then there's FT2 and whatever the hell wikipedia reviewis accusing him of doing/being - we are in for some low talk
[07-12-22 00.25] <Doc_glasgow>
[07-12-22 00.25] <Tony_Sidaway> Doc_glasgow: I'm nearly always here.
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> doc - the guy on WR is the guy who tried trolling the arbelections. Its on my arb election vote page, the Q&A's he asked.
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> But when he was stopped from doing it he went nuclear off site, so I figure let him have his speech
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> its his right. Its not harming anyone
[07-12-22 00.26] <DarkFalls> FT2: Link plz?
[07-12-22 00.26] <FT2> ignore
[07-12-22 00.26] <Tony_Sidaway> BADSITES!!!!
[07-12-22 00.27] <Tony_Sidaway> :@)
[07-12-22 00.27] <FT2> df, honest, its not important. The page was deleted by the arb overseers, or something.
[07-12-22 00.27] <DarkFalls> Tony_Sidaway: I was about to accuse him of that after he showed me... ;p
[07-12-22 00.27] <Doc_glasgow> FT2: I didn't read it, I just saw the word "Zoophilia" and went "ooooo!"
[07-12-22 00.27] <DarkFalls> you ruined my fun
[07-12-22 00.27] <FT2> * nods
[07-12-22 00.27] <FT2> You want the 10 second version?
[07-12-22 00.27] <Doc_glasgow> FT2: I honestly didn't read it
[07-12-22 00.28] <Tony_Sidaway> Zoolander? Oh I loved that. "Freak gasoline fight accident"
[07-12-22 00.28] <DarkFalls> Doc_glasgow: You went oooo after you saw zoophilia? O.O
[07-12-22 00.28] <Doc_glasgow> they are full of shit
[07-12-22 00.28] <FT2> The guy had a mediation, he didnt like the answer, it was a year ago, he went nuts, and had an apoplectic fit someone would mention working on articles like that
[07-12-22 00.28] <FT2> not thinking those articles have admin attention due to their problems
[07-12-22 00.28] * Tony_Sidaway sends everybod a blipvert of his past six months and watches brains explode.
[07-12-22 00.28] <FT2> a lot of fiction... but its not important
[07-12-22 00.29] <Tony_Sidaway> Fiction friction fuction function faction, it's all Wikipedia.
[07-12-22 00.29] <FT2> seriously, does anyone want the story, or not important?
[07-12-22 00.29] <Tony_Sidaway> Do it
[07-12-22 00.29] <FT2> okies.
[07-12-22 00.29] <FT2> long & short...
[07-12-22 00.30] <FT2> (brbr door, 2 mins)
[07-12-22 00.30] -->| Until1is2 (i=SomeFool@wikipedia/Until-1-equals-2) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.32] <Tony_Sidaway> I'm going to eat some chocolate cake.
[07-12-22 00.32] <FT2> back
[07-12-22 00.32] <FT2> sorry
[07-12-22 00.33] |<-- MaxSem has left irc.freenode.net (Connection timed out)
[07-12-22 00.34] <Dragonfly6-7> we forgive you
[07-12-22 00.35] <animum> ...but not unless you steal some of Tony's cake and give it to us.
[07-12-22 00.35] <Freya> blipvert?
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> One of the things Ive learned is, there'll always be people trying to stir dramatics. Pay too much attention and you fall into the game and take the eye off what matters.
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> So yes Im away theres a guy saying stuff. I also can point to the wiki evidence if needed that most of it's fabricated.
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> and yet, its not very important, so Im kind of going to let him to his thing, and in a few months he'll tire of it
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> so be it
[07-12-22 00.38] <FT2> the way of all of that kind
[07-12-22 00.38] -->| Ioeth (n=Ioeth@wikipedia/Ioeth) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.39] <Doc_glasgow> FT2: never let facts get in the way of a good "I'm a victim of the evil powerful one" story
[07-12-22 00.39] <FT2> If, as a separate matter, there is a genuine question that does matter, thats different. But that guy isnt after answers; he's had them and the evidence, and was told to quit it, and couldnt.
[07-12-22 00.39] <FT2> So that offer isnt open to him.
[07-12-22 00.40] <FT2> But the simple answer is, I edit on controversial topics... a lot of them And somethign that'll probably upset him, I plan to do so in future too.
[07-12-22 00.41] <FT2> I disclose the topics I edit on, on my user page, and have done so since 2005.
[07-12-22 00.42] <Tony_Sidaway> Freya: a blipvert is a TV ad compressed from 20 seconds down to 0.2 seconds or so. It's been known to cause explosion of the cranium.
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> and it'd be nice to have honesty but this is a guy who has little concept of it when angry. You get those. So one can't discuss. WJBScribe tried, Radiant! tried, 1==2 tried, RyanP tried...
[07-12-22 00.42] -->| libregaton (n=chatzill@wikipedia/Cimon-avaro) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> you cant
[07-12-22 00.42] <bishonen> in a few months he'll tire? you *are* talking about Peter Damian, right?
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> nods
[07-12-22 00.42] <bishonen> he's left.
[07-12-22 00.42] <FT2> yes.
[07-12-22 00.43] -->| JodyB (n=chatzill@wikipedia/jodyb) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> he's still trying to find an audience elsewhere
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> but thats okay, its his right
[07-12-22 00.43] |<-- cparham has left irc.freenode.net ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]")
[07-12-22 00.43] <bishonen> do you really think it's right to spread yourself about his bad character here, where he can't reply?
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> bottle it up, to some people it just proves they have to shout louder
[07-12-22 00.43] <FT2> he's that type
[07-12-22 00.44] |<-- Dragonfly6-7 has left irc.freenode.net ()
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> Its a tough one.
[07-12-22 00.44] <Tony_Sidaway> bishonen: yes, of course he does.
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> this was what prompted it
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> <Doc_glasgow> gosh, first we have Tony_Sidaway in here, now we have lar , and then there's FT2 and whatever the hell wikipedia reviewis accusing him of doing/being - we are in for some low talk
[07-12-22 00.44] <Tony_Sidaway> This is a private forum. We can talk about whatever we want to talk about.,
[07-12-22 00.44] <bishonen> i mean, i hold no brief for his accusations, but he did edit the pedia harmlessly and usefully for four years, I believe.
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> nods
[07-12-22 00.44] <FT2> my response was
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> But when he was stopped from doing it he went nuclear off site, so I figure let him have his speech
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> its his right. Its not harming anyone
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <DarkFalls> FT2: Link plz?
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> ignore
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> <FT2> df, honest, its not important. The page was deleted by the arb overseers, or something.
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> beyond that, Im sorry if I should have shut up then
[07-12-22 00.45] <Random832> i'm bored; any dramaz?
[07-12-22 00.45] <FT2> and accept the comment, bish
[07-12-22 00.45] <bishonen> tony, no, we can't talk about whatever we want to talk about. we're supposed to practice decency. it's not too private for that.
[07-12-22 00.45] <Tony_Sidaway> I really cannot understand this "don't talk about a third party unless he's present" thing. Where on earth does it come from?
[07-12-22 00.45] <bishonen> from the article on this channel, is where i got it.
[07-12-22 00.45] =-= wimt is now known as wimt_away
[07-12-22 00.46] =-= carl-m|away is now known as carl-m
[07-12-22 00.46] <carl-m> how's the scc?
[07-12-22 00.46] <bishonen> but it's not "unless he's present", it's "talk as if he could hear you."
[07-12-22 00.46] <FT2> its courtesy. I'm content to accept bish's correction. It's not important anyhow. He'll tire of it.
[07-12-22 00.46] * FT2 nods - bish, that I always do.
[07-12-22 00.46] <bishonen> ft2, yes, that's cool.
[07-12-22 00.46] <FT2> we drop it then?

[07-12-22 00.45] <bishonen> tony, no, we can't talk about whatever we want to talk about. we're supposed to practice decency. it's not too private for that.
[07-12-22 00.45] <Tony_Sidaway> I really cannot understand this "don't talk about a third party unless he's present" thing. Where on earth does it come from?
[07-12-22 00.45] <bishonen> from the article on this channel, is where i got it.

Executive summary

<Doc_glasgow> Hey, they are seem to be saying some stuff about you on Wikipedia review
<FT2> It's just a guy with a grudge against me. Do you want me to explain?
<Doc_glasgow> Not really, it's boring, and I'm only trolling you
<bishonen> And we shouldn't discuss a guy who isn't here
<Tony_Sidaway> Why ever not?
<FT2> I agree with bishonen
Summary ends


Dull, or what?

This is all totally amazing isn't it? I assist in the unblock of an editor who was wrongly blocked. For this, I am then attacked on IRC. I then post in wiki requesting not to be attacked on IRC. A "Pseudo-Admin" then says I imagined it. Then logs prove I did not - he retracts. Then I'm attacked on IRC again "fucking wanker" So I ask James Forester to ensure it does not happen again. He asks for proof. He gets it. I'm then attacked by many IRC users here for complaining about it. Funny old world isn't it? I'm afraid, IRC wants us all just to put up and shut up. Giano (talk) 09
52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

FT2, you have been commenting at length on IRC #admins about the latest debacle. Implying I should have taken it to the channel ops first. Actually, I did. The Channel's owner [26] who was dismissive, patronising and pompous. So I took it to a wider audience. Its a pity you did not see fit to comment on wiki instead of reserving your comments for the secretive IRC. Perhaps you should decide whether you want to be an Arb or a Chan Op. Clearly IRC is more important to you or perhaps you see no difference. Either way if Admins can call editors "fucking wankers" on #admins without disgust, actions and sanctions from Arbs, then obviously the reverse is now OK. Giano (talk) 11:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

So what's going to happen now?
I notice this thread has been archived away; swept under the rug so to speak, try to hide this disgraceful incident. I want to know several things: hopefully I will be able to do it in a more civil manner than Giano, who I very much agree with.

Was anything at all done about this behaviour, on the channel? I mean, was there any sanction given, what "words" were said. As myself and Krimpet, and others have said above, Daniel has a history of poor behaviour in the channel (and ironically, it was he who was advocating my removal from there). How long is this going to be tolerated for?

Other issues: why are there arbitrators in charge of the channel? (FT2, James F, Deskana, Dmcdevit (former), YellowMonkey etc). It's hardly surprising nothing gets done about the damage the channel is doing, when the people who are supposedly dealing with it, are the ones running it. Another question, is the channel being logged for private use by ArbCom so that incidents like this can be swiftly dealt with? I heard it was, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Do not archive this thread: this is not over. Al Tally talk 12:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Why should something be done? It's off-Wiki, it's in a channel that is not officially endorsed by WP. We have the right and we reserve the right to say anything about anyone, much like how people will go to WR and other sites and say whatever about anybody with no negative recourse here. People are crying over spilled milk here, and especially as to who the complaint is coming from, makes this "complaint" even more worthless. seicer | talk | contribs 12:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't pretend that just because it's not "officially" endorsed makes it completely separate. It's run by our arbitrators, and only administrators from this website are allowed in there. It may be off-wiki, but it's part of Wikipedia, like it or not. And don't claim that things said off-site get ignored here, because they don't - I shouldn't have to give examples.
And excellent ad hominem there seicer. How about tacking the issue instead of the people bringing it up? Or is that too difficult for you? Al Tally talk 12:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

::The whole IRC/Arbcom is too incestuous [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cbrown1023/Guidelines_(user_info)#Users_and_operators] the Arbs do nothing because they know that IRC are the ones that vote for them and keep them where they are. When the Arbs decided to examine IRC#admins, who did they appoint to examine? Why, non other than our old friend FT2 - the darling of IRC - no wonder he found no problem. How much longer are we going to keep taking this rubbish from this so called Arbcom/Chanop committee? [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II|talk]]) 15:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

For the last year, as the Arbcom fully intended, I have been watching and suffering screaming little IRCadmins running to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement with "Wicked Giano has said this" "Evil Giano has said that" Most of these occasions have been immediately following one of your number promoting the event on IRC (Don't deny it, I have 24 logs without break for the last two years). This Arbcom has been obsessed with civility. Personally, I think an obsession with civility is a very lower middle class trait, but so be it. However, now the boot appears to be on the other foot. However, Let's not forget (as I posted on ANI):

This is all totally amazing isn't it? I assist in the unblock of an editor who was wrongly blocked. For this, I am then attacked on IRC. I then post on wiki requesting not to be attacked on IRC. A "Pseudo-Admin" then says I imagined it. Then logs prove I did not - he retracts. Then I'm attacked on IRC again "fucking wanker" So I ask James Forester to ensure it does not happen again. He asks for proof. He gets it. I'm then attacked by many IRC users here for complaining about it. Funny old world isn't it? I'm afraid, IRC wants us all just to put up and shut up

Now FT2, your gang are undeniably in the wrong, and for once I am personally campaigning for the justice I frequently campaign, and demand, for others, and I want it and I'll have it. Your IRCadmins can belittle me (as they are doing) all over Wikipedia, but you, the Arbcom and J Wales all know that won't stop me. So don't you dare try and sweep this under the Arbcom's filthy carpet. Giano (talk) 20:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FT2"

I do not think comments that Giano should have pursued other avenues of complaint before coming to this board should detract from the fact that he has a totally legitimate grievance. No one should be surprised given his history with the channel that he has been as angered by these events as he is. The admin channel is not a forum for abusive language to be used about other Wikipedians. It is my opinion from my involvement in the channel that such incidents are very rare and do not reflect the overwhelming majority of discourse in the channel - however much others seem to believe otherwise. That said, the current rarity of such incidents does not excuse them and I expect action to be taken in response to this matter. I note that Giano appears to have received no apology for the comment. I am also disappointed at the apparent defensiveness I read in responses to Giano. It seems to me that the original insult has only been compounded by them - grilling someone about how they found out they were called a fucking wanker is not going to create a positive impression of the dispute resolution process. "Go away Giano and stop complaining about IRC" is not an appropriate way to respond to a legitimate complaint. WJBscribe (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I've tried very hard to cultivate a good relationship with you Giano - very hard indeed. But this is twisted slanderous crap. Firstly, you know that I am Doc glasgow, since we've corresponded on the subject very civilly via e-mail some weeks ago. Secondly, I retracted nothing. You said you'd been discussed in the "previous couple of hours", I checked the logs and discovered you were WRONG - and politely pointed it out. I subsequently discovered that the conversation was some hours before that (from a time I had not logs) and politely informed you of that. You accused me of calling you a liar, and then accused me of being a liar, when patently you'd made the (honest) mistake. I've already pointed that out to you, but now you twist it again. Not serious, except that twisting facts to make people look bad is your modus operandi. The fact is that you are simply not interested in truth, civility, or who you insult and what you distort as long as you can be outraged and fight pathetic little wars. Well, I'm calling you out. I'm fed up with saying "Giano is an excellent wikipedian, but we whish he'd just be a lot less......", let's call a spade a spade, you behaviour repeatedly is rude, untruthful and hypocritical, and a net detriment to this project. I am fed up with people making allowances for you. Someone called you a "wanker" on IRC? Boo hoo. Yes IRC has some problems, yes that incivility wasn't good. But your feigned outrage at personal attacks and incivility and your demand for satisfaction when you engage in the same regularly with impunity is sickening. There is an honest disagreement about IRC and its capacity to stunt the wikiprocess, and sane people can engage in it, but I suspect that even among those who dislike IRC, the sane are tired of your pathetic tactics. (Oh, and please don't bother e-mailing me with abuse in response to this - I'm saying it openly on wiki.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 20:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Executive summary

<Doc_glasgow> Hey, they are seem to be saying some stuff about you on Wikipedia review
<FT2> It's just a guy with a grudge against me. Do you want me to explain?
<Doc_glasgow> Not really, it's boring, and I'm only trolling you
<bishonen> And we shouldn't discuss a guy who isn't here
<Tony_Sidaway> Why ever not?
<FT2> I agree with bishonen
Summary ends


Dull, or what?

twisting facts to make people look bad is your modus operandi.

"It's off-Wiki, it's in a channel that is not officially endorsed by WP. We have the right and we reserve the right to say anything about anyone, much like how people will go to WR and other sites and say whatever about anybody with no negative recourse here."

If I wrongly summarised the material concerning you in that exchange, then I apologise.

Erm…

Peter, you can believe what you like, but I have never read any of the stuff you have posted about FT2, and I've equally never paid any attention to his defence, or anything he's said about you.

Perhaps you were thinking of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=236842333

In defense of Doc, I probably fall into the same category: people who have never really bothered to study the beef between you and FT2.

It might be that NLP is a cult (or whatever it's supposed to be), and it might be that FT2 is on the sexual fringe. I think a lot of people just don't care about that.

How exactly is that a defence of Doc?

You don't care if the world's most important encyclopedia is run by a cult. Enough said. I always thought you were full of shit.

You don't care if the world's most important encyclopedia is run by a cult. Enough said. I always thought you were full of shit.

By Hammurabi's lights, the Final Absolution equates to the Final Ablution.

So I suggest people wash their hands of Jimbo's cult of pre-Hammurabic tribalism, cleanse themselves of the grit by jumping in the lake, and evolving to a more modern and enlightened governance model along the lines suggested by such innovative pioneers as Moses, Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tsu, Maimonides, Thomas Becket, Stephen Langton, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Henry David Thoreau, Mohandas Gandhi, ML King, Thich Nhat Hanh, John Rawls, Father John Dear, Barak Obama, Kermit the Frog, and Barsoom Tork Associates.

How exactly is that a defence of Doc?



You don't care if the world's most important encyclopedia is run by a cult. Enough said. I always thought you were full of shit.

This is bullshit on its face. If Wikipedia is run by a cult, which one? Rawat? NLP? Unificationists?

Wikipedia is not run by a cult. The problem is that fringe groups tend to promote their own self-interests. They don't usually care about anything else.

This is a real problem. Fringe POV pushing is endemic. It transcends any group of editors, and certainly transcends FT2--yet you're fixated on him. When I see someone who continually harps on one person, I tend to ignore it. You might have some very good points, but my signal-noise discriminator tends to dump it out as useless ax grinding.

IRCAdmins rule Wikipedia not just by secretive unity, but also by block voting. There are so many of them that they can sway all elections, especially under the present system, where a vote against a candidate can be more important than the vote for. This is why there are so many of them as Checkusers and Arbs. I wonder how many of the present Arbcom and checkusers do not use #Admins? So not only does Wikipedia have Jimbo making the final choice, the successful candidates from who he chooses are selected and vetted for him first by IRC#admins. At present I feel there is no point at all, for anyone who is not an #Admin even bothering to take an interest in the forthcoming Arb elections. #Admins know this, Jimbo knows it, I know it - the only people who don't seem to are the rank and file editors writing the project - who will be banned if they dare to raise their heads and criticise the system. Some of them just put up, others are wising up, but sadly, they are the ones who just tend to think "sod it" and leave the project. It's all very worrying.

If you haven't noticed I contribute on many subjects here. You have already said you had confused my posts, which are mostly not about Zoophilia, with those of someone called Docknell. I also post a lot about FT2, but that is because, as you clearly haven't noticed, he is one of the most important and influential people on the project. The main concern I have about him is

1. his involvement in the NLP cult, and the clear resulting conflict of interest which he has abused on many occasions (including having me blocked for trying to get some of these articles deleted)

2. His role in promoting the cult of civility, in particular the ongoing dispute with Giano. But as you say you don't read any of these posts because they involve a single person, you wouldn't know this would you.

The real explanation is this: you decided from the start that FT2 was a good thing and you tend to ignore or blank out anything that contradicts this predetermined view. This is what we call 'cognitive dissonance'.

One quarter of your posts mention him. That might not be DL-level fixation, but it's something the makes me very cautious in accepting your claims about him (even if most of the zoophilia stuff is Docknell's).

As for the cult of civility, you've made some good points there, but it's also a broader problem then FT2. Formally, ArbCom only cares about things like civility while ignoring actual content. This is a structural problem with ArbCom, and it's reiterated on almost every case involving contentious material. I don't think he's the chief priest of that cult, or even a particularly important one.

As for FT2's influence, I think you greatly overstate it. He lost a helluva lot of political capital with his "unanimous" ban of OrangeMarlin. I think his enemies extend farther than the scientists too--if I read SlimVirgin correctly, FT2 is one of the people who's botched "secret trials" she despises.

IRC, on the other hand... have I mentioned that Giano is exactly right on this issue?

Don't get me wrong--it seems to have been an injustice--but I tend to discount such sources.

Yet OrangeMarlin remains on parole. And if his enemies extend farther than the scientists, ask yourself why that is.

I suppose my experience with DL has made me react disproportionately against anyone who seems to be grinding an axe. That's all. I wish you'd stop saying I'm full of shit and calling me "FT2's mate," but I can't really stop you.

It was your stupid comments above and elsewhere that caused me to say that.

I've never ignored an user here before, but I'll have to if

Secret IRC off Wiki consensus building
Why not release the logs? Let's see how often Admins have been violating the most basic values of Wikipedia and gone off-wiki to reach consensus. I have been on here for a while, but never once was it disclosed to me that Wikipedia is governed in secret at Admin only discussion channels. BobDysart (talk) 01:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

You may as well ask for a trolling block, calm down. John Reaves 01:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Well I've just recieved a warning in that regard. But I was never made aware of a private channel for Admins only and it's disturbing that while editors are under the impression that decisions are made in open consensus, this is in fact not the case. I brought up the issue on an Admin board and had it quickly blanked. BobDysart (talk) 01:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Pardon us for forgetting to notify you. John Reaves 01:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)