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Daniel Brandt
QUOTE(Alison @ Tue 5th August 2008, 11:46pm) *

I've no desire to have Daniel Brandt banned from here (to what end??) though I wish he'd stop his petty vendettas against those who he feels cross him. You've heard that part before ...

Let's be more clear about who is harassing whom, in the context of me vs. Wikipedia. If you like you can go back nearly three years to get more perspective on this.

Just two days ago my DNS provider (which is entirely separate from the hosting providers for the dedicated servers I lease) received this email. My DNS provider sent me the extended headers that I requested, which show that it came from Perth, Australia. There's a guy in Perth who is 23 years old and studying law, and thinks he knows something about copyright. He was blocking me from IRC two years ago, and is still active on various Wikipedia-related IRC channels. He's an admin who's been on hivemind for a long time, and uses his real name (I presume) on his user page.

Although my evidence so far is circumstantial, I think he's the one who sent this. But I'm not sure because I always thought this guy was smarter than to pull a stunt that's this crude.

What would you do in response to this if your DNS provider forwarded it to you and said, "Please take appropriate action"?

Assuming that I can confirm that this guy is the one who sent it, how about a complaint letter to Mike Godwin? A letter to Freenode? A letter to some dean at the place in Perth where he's studying law?

QUOTE

Received: from 203.59.154.236
(SquirrelMail authenticated user rwest@loopaustralia.com)
by webmail.loopaustralia.com with HTTP;
Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: <rwest@loopaustralia.com>
To: <abuse@myDNSprovider.com>
Subject:
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:31:39 -0700
Message-ID: <58115.203.59.154.236.1217853099.squirrel@webmail.loopaustralia.com>

To who this may concern,

One of your users who you provide hosting for has been hosting
legally confidential and privileged information on their site without
the written permission of the copyright owners. The owner of
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/ has been hosting confidential chat
logs from wikimedia foundation chat rooms. These chat rooms are social
channels however, users occasionally discuss and circulate information
which is of a private nature. This is why, the channel holds a strict
"no public logging" rule. It is for this reason, I am requesting
you take all chat logs under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
(17 U.S.C. 512, 1201-1205, 1301-1332; 28 U.S.C. 4001).
I hereby swear under penalty of perjury on behalf of the members
of wikimedia foundation channels that, I am acting on behalf of the
members in a legal way and request you take down all relevant chat
logs from http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/irc-logs

Regards

Ryan West

_____________________________________


My response to my DNS provider:

Thanks for forwarding this email to me. If you wish to pursue
this, please send me the full headers so that I can look for
the originating IP address. They got replaced with your own
headers when you forwarded it.

This complaint appears to be a hoax. I can find no evidence of
a "Ryan West" who is associated with Wikipedia, or with the
Wikimedia Foundation, which is the legal owner of Wikipedia.

Moreover, the owner of the IRC chat room in question is Freenode,
not the Wikimedia Foundation. Freenode lets Wikipedia run several
channels on their network.

Also, if there is a "Ryan West" then he may be able to claim
copyright on his own postings, but not on any other postings
in those logs. Each poster would only be able to claim copyright
on his or her own posts. My logs include an exhaustive search
engine, and I can find no postings that are identified as coming
from a "Ryan West". Neither the Wikimedia Foundation nor Freenode
has legal standing to claim copyright on the logs I have posted on
wikipedia-watch.org.

Finally, it is doubtful whether the drivel that comes from any
particular chat room participant is even something that is covered
under copyright law.

Regards,
Daniel Brandt,
PIR president

JoseClutch
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 7:36am) *

What would you do in response to this if your DNS provider forwarded it to you and said, "Please take appropriate action"?


Nothing.

The various IRC posts may be copyrighted (the long ones likely are, drivel or not), but Wikipedia-Watch has a pretty clearcut journalistic fair use claim to repost them. Probably what to tell your hosting service.

The Ryan guy, I would ignore. At the end of the day, Godwin, the Foundation, and whoever else cannot do anything, since they likely have no clue who this guy is. Complaining to them now just means they will listen less in the future.
Random832
QUOTE(JoseClutch @ Wed 6th August 2008, 1:29pm) *

QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 7:36am) *

What would you do in response to this if your DNS provider forwarded it to you and said, "Please take appropriate action"?


Nothing.

The various IRC posts may be copyrighted (the long ones likely are, drivel or not), but Wikipedia-Watch has a pretty clearcut journalistic fair use claim to repost them.


Precisely what journalistic purpose does a bulk archive of IRC logs with no commentary serve? I'm reminded of Free Republic.
JoseClutch
QUOTE(Random832 @ Wed 6th August 2008, 9:35am) *

QUOTE(JoseClutch @ Wed 6th August 2008, 1:29pm) *

QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 7:36am) *

What would you do in response to this if your DNS provider forwarded it to you and said, "Please take appropriate action"?


Nothing.

The various IRC posts may be copyrighted (the long ones likely are, drivel or not), but Wikipedia-Watch has a pretty clearcut journalistic fair use claim to repost them.


Precisely what journalistic purpose does a bulk archive of IRC logs with no commentary serve? I'm reminded of Free Republic.

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Uses a lot of complete valueless work, but for the purposes of exposing otherwise inaccessible information on Wikipedia's processes. In a (profit? nonprofit?) educational context. The only problem might be the wholeness of use, but given the inherent valuelessness, I doubt there is any problem.
Mark Ryan
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 9:36pm) *

QUOTE(Alison @ Tue 5th August 2008, 11:46pm) *

I've no desire to have Daniel Brandt banned from here (to what end??) though I wish he'd stop his petty vendettas against those who he feels cross him. You've heard that part before ...

Let's be more clear about who is harassing whom, in the context of me vs. Wikipedia. If you like you can go back nearly three years to get more perspective on this.

Just two days ago my DNS provider (which is entirely separate from the hosting providers for the dedicated servers I lease) received this email. My DNS provider sent me the extended headers that I requested, which show that it came from Perth, Australia. There's a guy in Perth who is 23 years old and studying law, and thinks he knows something about copyright. He was blocking me from IRC two years ago, and is still active on various Wikipedia-related IRC channels. He's an admin who's been on hivemind for a long time, and uses his real name (I presume) on his user page.

Although my evidence so far is circumstantial, I think he's the one who sent this. But I'm not sure because I always thought this guy was smarter than to pull a stunt that's this crude.

What would you do in response to this if your DNS provider forwarded it to you and said, "Please take appropriate action"?

Assuming that I can confirm that this guy is the one who sent it, how about a complaint letter to Mike Godwin? A letter to Freenode? A letter to some dean at the place in Perth where he's studying law?

QUOTE

Received: from 203.59.154.236
(SquirrelMail authenticated user rwest@loopaustralia.com)
by webmail.loopaustralia.com with HTTP;
Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: <rwest@loopaustralia.com>
To: <abuse@myDNSprovider.com>
Subject:
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:31:39 -0700
Message-ID: <58115.203.59.154.236.1217853099.squirrel@webmail.loopaustralia.com>

To who this may concern,

One of your users who you provide hosting for has been hosting
legally confidential and privileged information on their site without
the written permission of the copyright owners. The owner of
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/ has been hosting confidential chat
logs from wikimedia foundation chat rooms. These chat rooms are social
channels however, users occasionally discuss and circulate information
which is of a private nature. This is why, the channel holds a strict
"no public logging" rule. It is for this reason, I am requesting
you take all chat logs under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
(17 U.S.C. 512, 1201-1205, 1301-1332; 28 U.S.C. 4001).
I hereby swear under penalty of perjury on behalf of the members
of wikimedia foundation channels that, I am acting on behalf of the
members in a legal way and request you take down all relevant chat
logs from http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/irc-logs

Regards

Ryan West

_____________________________________


My response to my DNS provider:

Thanks for forwarding this email to me. If you wish to pursue
this, please send me the full headers so that I can look for
the originating IP address. They got replaced with your own
headers when you forwarded it.

This complaint appears to be a hoax. I can find no evidence of
a "Ryan West" who is associated with Wikipedia, or with the
Wikimedia Foundation, which is the legal owner of Wikipedia.

Moreover, the owner of the IRC chat room in question is Freenode,
not the Wikimedia Foundation. Freenode lets Wikipedia run several
channels on their network.

Also, if there is a "Ryan West" then he may be able to claim
copyright on his own postings, but not on any other postings
in those logs. Each poster would only be able to claim copyright
on his or her own posts. My logs include an exhaustive search
engine, and I can find no postings that are identified as coming
from a "Ryan West". Neither the Wikimedia Foundation nor Freenode
has legal standing to claim copyright on the logs I have posted on
wikipedia-watch.org.

Finally, it is doubtful whether the drivel that comes from any
particular chat room participant is even something that is covered
under copyright law.

Regards,
Daniel Brandt,
PIR president



Hi Daniel,

Someone pointed me the way of this post.

I wasn't the person who sent the message, nor did I have any involvement in it. It appears I've been somewhat impersonated. The reverse DNS of the sender indicates the blog URL of the person who sent it (whose identity you can surely discover by searching your extensive chat logs for that domain). He's a high school student from Perth and a bit of a troll, though I'm not sure why he'd send out an email like this unless he just wanted to annoy me.

I've bitched to you enough in the past about your IRC logs. I don't care enough about the IRC logging issue any more to do anything more than kickban your logging bots when they get discovered. I've finished my law degree now, and I'm not stupid enough to:
1. use a pseudonym in a legal document;
2. try to send a DMCA notice via e-mail;
3. purport to enforce copyright on behalf of other people; or
4. use such shitty grammar like "I am acting on behalf of the members in a legal way".

Seriously, give me a bit more credit in future. I'd very much like it if you stopped posting logs of the channels, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it if you don't. If you have any questions about the IRC channels I manage, or want me to contact your DNS provider to set the record straight, you can always email me.
Random832
QUOTE(Mark Ryan @ Wed 6th August 2008, 3:47pm) *

Hi Daniel,

Someone pointed me the way of this post.

I wasn't the person who sent the message, nor did I have any involvement in it. It appears I've been somewhat impersonated. The reverse DNS of the sender indicates the blog URL of the person who sent it (whose identity you can surely discover by searching your extensive chat logs for that domain). He's a high school student from Perth and a bit of a troll, though I'm not sure why he'd send out an email like this unless he just wanted to annoy me.

I've bitched to you enough in the past about your IRC logs. I don't care enough about the IRC logging issue any more to do anything more than kickban your logging bots when they get discovered. I've finished my law degree now, and I'm not stupid enough to:
1. use a pseudonym in a legal document;
2. try to send a DMCA notice via e-mail;
3. purport to enforce copyright on behalf of other people; or
4. use such shitty grammar like "I am acting on behalf of the members in a legal way".

Seriously, give me a bit more credit in future. I'd very much like it if you stopped posting logs of the channels, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it if you don't. If you have any questions about the IRC channels I manage, or want me to contact your DNS provider to set the record straight, you can always email me.


Uh... I can't see where the person who sent the e-mail gave the appearance of being you. I see where Daniel Brandt misidentified the person as you, but that seems more down to his underestimation of the population of Perth than to any actual deception on the part of the sender.
Mark Ryan
QUOTE(Random832 @ Thu 7th August 2008, 1:59am) *

Uh... I can't see where the person who sent the e-mail gave the appearance of being you. I see where Daniel Brandt misidentified the person as you, but that seems more down to his underestimation of the population of Perth than to any actual deception on the part of the sender.


My Surname is Ryan, I'm a West Australian, and I am the 'owner' of the channels the notice is about. I guess it might just have been a random selection. There sure are a lot of Ryans around.
dogbiscuit
QUOTE(Mark Ryan @ Wed 6th August 2008, 4:47pm) *

Seriously, give me a bit more credit in future. I'd very much like it if you stopped posting logs of the channels, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it if you don't. If you have any questions about the IRC channels I manage, or want me to contact your DNS provider to set the record straight, you can always email me.

To be fair to Daniel, he did give you credit, that is why he couldn't believe it really was you (assuming you are the person Daniel alluded to). I'd note that if people want Daniel to go away, "Eew! Let's poke it!" is unlikely to be the solution, so if it was some "well meaning" member of IRC, then I'd drop that hint around. Daniel had been rather quiet of late...
gomi
[Moderator's note: posts above here were split from this thread. It is possible some context remains there. -- gomi]
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 5:36am) *



QUOTE

Received: from 203.59.154.236
(SquirrelMail authenticated user rwest@loopaustralia.com)
by webmail.loopaustralia.com with HTTP;
Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: <rwest@loopaustralia.com>
To: <abuse@myDNSprovider.com>
Subject:
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:31:39 -0700
Message-ID: <58115.203.59.154.236.1217853099.squirrel@webmail.loopaustralia.com>

To who this may concern,

One of your users who you provide hosting for has been hosting
legally confidential and privileged information on their site without
the written permission of the copyright owners. The owner of
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/ has been hosting confidential chat
logs from wikimedia foundation chat rooms. These chat rooms are social
channels however, users occasionally discuss and circulate information
which is of a private nature. This is why, the channel holds a strict
"no public logging" rule. It is for this reason, I am requesting
you take all chat logs under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
(17 U.S.C. 512, 1201-1205, 1301-1332; 28 U.S.C. 4001).
I hereby swear under penalty of perjury on behalf of the members
of wikimedia foundation channels that, I am acting on behalf of the
members in a legal way and request you take down all relevant chat
logs from http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/irc-logs

Regards

Ryan West





We have seen this odd reasoning before. It is an attempt to use copyright, aimed at preserving commercial interest, with extending "confidentiality" and "privilege." Fair Use Doctrine permits such use precisely because it has no commercial impact on the creator of the work and copyright is not meant to unduly restrict comment and debate.
Daniel Brandt
QUOTE(Mark Ryan @ Wed 6th August 2008, 9:47am) *

I wasn't the person who sent the message, nor did I have any involvement in it. It appears I've been somewhat impersonated. The reverse DNS of the sender indicates the blog URL of the person who sent it (whose identity you can surely discover by searching your extensive chat logs for that domain). He's a high school student from Perth and a bit of a troll, though I'm not sure why he'd send out an email like this unless he just wanted to annoy me.

Okay, Mark Ryan, I accept that you didn't do it. Thanks to your clues, I have determined that the culprit is most likely User:Symode09 on Wikipedia, age 16, who often logs in as brown_cat on the #wikipedia chat room. It is possible that Ryan West is his real name, although I doubt it. He registered loopaustralia.com using a proxy on 2007-09-01.

At any rate, he's a menace to civil society and if I find his real name I'm going to ask Mike Godwin to ban him for representing himself as an authorized agent of Wikimedia Foundation. In the meantime, I think you should block him from the #wikipedia IRC channel.

He doesn't learn his lesson. He has done this sort of thing before:

QUOTE

Boy dupes YouTube to delete videos

by Erik Jensen
The Sydney Morning Herald, April 14, 2007

A 15-YEAR-OLD West Australian pretending to represent ABC TV succeeded in having more than 200 clips removed from the video-sharing website YouTube. The boy signed a form claiming, "under penalty of perjury", that he represented the clips' copyright owners.

The segments, taken from The Chaser's War on Everything, were removed over a month and replaced by this message: "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Australian Broadcasting Corporation."

The latest clip to be removed featured Charles Firth accosting Hillary Clinton. It had been viewed more than 100,000 times before it was taken down yesterday.

"The head of ABC legal is contacting those involved," the head of arts, entertainment and comedy at ABC TV, Courtney Gibson, said. "We are very much keeping our options open in terms of what kind of action we take."

The ABC contacted YouTube after the clip was removed, and was provided with a copy of the form used to claim that a copyright infringement had been committed.

It had been filled out by hand, listing "Loop Australia" as the company acting for the "Australian Broddcasting Corperation".

The ABC has no affiliation with the company, or the boy whose Hotmail account was given as a business contact.

"I don't think we should prosecute him - we should probably hire him," said the Chaser's Julian Morrow. "If they are copyright crusaders, I hope they don't look too closely at the old days' The Chaser newspaper."

Ms Gibson said the removal of the clips was in direct contrast to ABC's policy on content sharing. "[ABC wishes] to get our content out there on as many platforms as possible, run by as many different operators as possible."

The incident comes after Viacom, parent company of MTV, Nickelodeon and Comedy Central, filed a lawsuit seeking more than $US1 billion ($1.28 billion) from Google and YouTube for copyright infringement.

Rootology
This reminds of me of the Michael Crook case, who sent bogus takedowns claiming that images owned by Fox News were his, simply because they featured his likeness:

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/11/02/micha...ook-sends-.html

The guy was apparently such a nuisance that the EFF themselves actually sued him to get him to stop:

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/11/01/eff-s...ichael-cro.html
Daniel Brandt
Searching on Myspace or Facebook for "symode09" turns up the name Deni Symonds, Aquinas College '09. Born: 1992-01-09

Confirming evidence. Also here.

One of Deni's Facebook friends is Mark Ryan. What's that saying about how you're known by the friends you keep? Mark Ryan is intelligent, which means he should give up on the IRC channels and come over to Wikipedia Review. We provide cover for a better class of troll over here on Wikipedia Review.

I'd ask Taxwoman to spank Deni, but I'd probably be safer asking Deni's parents instead. I don't want to be accused of cybersex with a minor.
Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 2:52pm) *
Okay, Mark Ryan, I accept that you didn't do it. Thanks to your clues, I have determined that the culprit is most likely User:Symode09 on Wikipedia, age 16, who often logs in as brown_cat on the #wikipedia chat room. It is possible that Ryan West is his real name, although I doubt it. He registered loopaustralia.com using a proxy on 2007-09-01.

At any rate, he's a menace to civil society and if I find his real name I'm going to ask Mike Godwin to ban him for representing himself as an authorized agent of Wikimedia Foundation. In the meantime, I think you should block him from the #wikipedia IRC channel.
Symode/brown cat/whatever the bloody hell name he's going by today is a pest and a troll (and not all that good of one, either). I seem to recall that he's been banned from IRC on a few occasions, but of course he always weasels his way back in. (How he does this is left as an exercise to the reader.)
JohnA
So Mark Ryan is definitely in the clear, and a WP troll manages to make WP look foolish.

Another great day in the history of the Wikimedia Foundation. laugh.gif
Daniel Brandt
Firm evidence showing that Deni Symonds == Symode09, who has access to loopaustralia.com, which was mentioned in the Sydney Morning Herald.

That's enough proof for me. It's time to send a fax to Mike Godwin. I want to go on record with a formal complaint about this sort of harassment. Then when the Foundation fails to do anything at all, this could prove useful to me at some point in the future.
Alison
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 3:23pm) *

Firm evidence showing that Deni Symonds == Symode09, who has access to loopaustralia.com, which was mentioned in the Sydney Morning Herald.

That's enough proof for me. It's time to send a fax to Mike Godwin. I want to go on record with a formal complaint about this sort of harassment. Then when the Foundation fails to do anything at all, this could prove useful to me at some point in the future.

Damn! wacko.gif

It's not often that I agree with Brandt on something but this guy needs to take responsibility for what he did here. Impersonating Mark Ryan? Sending takedown letters over email? Yup - file the complaint, by all means. Dunno if the Foundation will do anything about it, but they sure need to know about his misrepresentation of them.
Daniel Brandt
QUOTE(Alison @ Wed 6th August 2008, 4:26pm) *

Damn! wacko.gif
It's not often that I agree with Brandt on something but this guy needs to take responsibility for what he did here. Impersonating Mark Ryan? Sending takedown letters over email? Yup - file the complaint, by all means. Dunno if the Foundation will do anything about it, but they sure need to know about his misrepresentation of them.

Why not an indefinite block on User:Symode09 right now? Why do I have to spend several hours putting all this in a multi-page fax to Godwin? Let it all hang out on WP:ANI and make my life easier. I've already spent hours on August 4 researching this, in order to respond to my DNS provider in a way that was sufficiently convincing so that he agreed that no action was required. And spent more hours today on research. Give Symode09 a chance to respond and then block him if he cannot prove his innocence.

Wikipedia commnity-banned me for off-wikipedia activity (namely Hivemind), so doesn't that mean that you can ban Symode09 for off-wikipedia activity too? Or am I living in a dream world?

P.S. If a mod thinks this can be moved to General Discussion so that it's publicly linkable, then I think this would be a good idea. Otherwise it takes a lot of energy to explain the whole thing.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 6th August 2008, 2:21pm) *

QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 2:52pm) *
Okay, Mark Ryan, I accept that you didn't do it. Thanks to your clues, I have determined that the culprit is most likely User:Symode09 on Wikipedia, age 16, who often logs in as brown_cat on the #wikipedia chat room. It is possible that Ryan West is his real name, although I doubt it. He registered loopaustralia.com using a proxy on 2007-09-01.

At any rate, he's a menace to civil society and if I find his real name I'm going to ask Mike Godwin to ban him for representing himself as an authorized agent of Wikimedia Foundation. In the meantime, I think you should block him from the #wikipedia IRC channel.
Symode/brown cat/whatever the bloody hell name he's going by today is a pest and a troll (and not all that good of one, either). I seem to recall that he's been banned from IRC on a few occasions, but of course he always weasels his way back in. (How he does this is left as an exercise to the reader.)

Here's a funny post where Deni Symonds as Symode09 shows up two years ago on Glen_S's TALK, asking to be made a "beaurocrat". That would be at age 14, and given his excellent spelling, also, I think they should have given it to him. He'd have been perfect as a WP wonk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Glen_S/Archive9 (His last name has been oversighted, but is Symonds per Google). And he does go to Aquinas College, apparently. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Aq...ation_stone.JPG. Here's another photo of Perth Coastline he uploaded. It must be so lonely out there that the people go loopy.

His many lists of "How to be annoying" on his blog would make him fit nicely on ED. http://symode09.spaces.live.com/default.as...0&wa=wsignin1.0
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 9:36pm) *

Let's be more clear about who is harassing whom, in the context of me vs. Wikipedia. If you like you can go back nearly three years to get more perspective on this.
Fair enough point. You could get it removed in a succinct manner, however, and then kiss them all goodbye.

I'm just sayin'.
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 9:36pm) *

Finally, it is doubtful whether the drivel that comes from any
particular chat room participant is even something that is covered
under copyright law.
All drivel is covered under copyright law. smile.gif Application of that law is subject to various ancillary aspects of ownership of venue, etc.

Just for fun:
Where the heck does this Einstein get off attempting to deploy DMCA extra-territorially? If he's studying Aussie law, he should 'get' that U.S. law doesn't apply in Perth.

Unless the Feds want it to, but that's another story. rolleyes.gif

One
Well, since Kelly Martin and Danial Brandt agree that user is a no-good harassing pest, I'm sure that the account will be blocked any minute now.

But I think it's more likely that the government of Australia would sanction'im than WMF. I hope they do. Serial abuse of copyright law shouldn't be taken lightly. This kid's some piece of work. Harassing two people and flushing hours down the toilet in one fell swoop.

Good luck, Brandt.
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 3:18pm) *

I'd ask Taxwoman to spank Deni, but I'd probably be safer asking Deni's parents instead. I don't want to be accused of cybersex with a minor.

Certainly not. You don't even know if he's a boy scout rolleyes.gif (that was a JOKE people).

QUOTE(One @ Wed 6th August 2008, 9:29pm) *

But I think it's more likely that the government of Australia would sanction'im than WMF. I hope they do. Serial abuse of copyright law shouldn't be taken lightly. This kid's some piece of work. Harassing two people and flushing hours down the toilet in one fell swoop.

I don't know what is more silly, email sending of DMCA take down notices under a pseudonym by a teenager, or grown adults taking it all too seriously.

I guess I am the lone outsider here, but I think this is a tempest in a teapot. unsure.gif
Somey
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 6th August 2008, 10:17pm) *
Just for fun: [/i]Where the heck does this Einstein get off attempting to deploy DMCA extra-territorially? If he's studying Aussie law, he should 'get' that U.S. law doesn't apply in Perth.

I'd assume that's why he pretended to represent the Wikimedia Foundation?

The fact is though, he probably succeeded about as well as he might have expected - the company did send a "please deal with this" notice to Daniel.

As for whether or not the User:Symode09 account ever gets blocked, here's a link for those who want to keep checking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...e=User:Symode09

But it's an established fact that they won't lift a finger against, much less block, accounts (and the people that run them) for misrepresentation, malicious impersonation, spreading of lies, and outright libel - as long as it's done to harass critics. I'd say the chances of a block here are... ZERO PERCENT!
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Somey @ Wed 6th August 2008, 10:07pm) *

QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 6th August 2008, 10:17pm) *
Just for fun: [/i]Where the heck does this Einstein get off attempting to deploy DMCA extra-territorially? If he's studying Aussie law, he should 'get' that U.S. law doesn't apply in Perth.

I'd assume that's why he pretended to represent the Wikimedia Foundation?

The fact is though, he probably succeeded about as well as he might have expected - the company did send a "please deal with this" notice to Daniel.


What? WMF in SFO sent a note to DB?

Oh, ok. It was the ISP? (DNS owner, presumably is an ISP). Ok, I get the harassment potential. But I don't see Godwin as the best response. Write him sure, but I doubt anything will come of it.

Send it to the kid's DNS provider, or his parents. Or the Australian Data Protection Agency (if there's such a thing - entirely possible). Or his teacher. Mayor. (scratches head). Girlfriend?

It would register with Godwin that the kid is a pain, but that's throwing him on the list of thousands of irritating children. In addition to the fact that DB isn't a sympathetic character chez Wikipedia.

I mean, if DB had "dated the founder" then..... rolleyes.gif ..... it might all be different.

But that's a hell of a high price.
Somey
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 6th August 2008, 11:13pm) *
What? WMF in SFO sent a note to DB?

Uhh, no... Try reading the first post in the thread a bit more carefully?
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Somey @ Wed 6th August 2008, 10:19pm) *

QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 6th August 2008, 11:13pm) *
What? WMF in SFO sent a note to DB?

Uhh, no... Try reading the first post in the thread a bit more carefully?


I did. I thought the word "thread" was "threat" and was busy dialing 911, until I realized my error.

smile.gif
Daniel Brandt
I'm thinking that the headmaster at Aquinas College should get a letter. It's a Catholic boarding school for boys. He has another year there before he graduates. His parents are probably rich, and probably wouldn't care. Mike Godwin wouldn't care either.

The fact that this is the second time he's pulled this stunt makes it an eye-opener. The headmaster might not know about the first time, because The Sydney Morning Herald didn't mention the lad's name in their article. While it's commendable that newspapers often choose to leave out the names of juveniles for pranks like this, in my opinion all bets are off if the perp just laughs it off and does it again. Or maybe the reporter didn't try hard enough to get the name.

Another option is to contact the reporter on the original story and see if he wants to do anything with it. But if Deni gets blocked soon, or shuts down his user pages and leaves Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons by this time next week, I'll just let it go. Otherwise, maybe I'll just stick him on hivemind, let it sit at number one in Google for a few months in a search for his name, and then forget about it. If he goes on hivemind, I'm going to link to The Sydney Morning Herald under his real name.
Disillusioned Lackey
It's against the law in many countries, Daniel, to post the name of a child. Maybe in the U.S. too - I'm not sure, but for sure in most of Europe.

I was joking about my suggestions, because I think that all of you guys are overreacting. But if you want to do anything, I'd suggest writing his parents a polite, nicely worded note. Of course, the fact that you have his picture up on hivemind won't win you a lot of favors. Speaking of which, (sorry to be a fly in the ointment) but that could cause you some trouble, legally-speaking,. For the same reason that the Sunday Herald doesn't put his name in the paper.... Just saying...

(get out umbrella for impending Brandt tirade - yeah yeah, I know, I know, but I have a point).

My 2 cents.

I'm a bit fussy about kids. Even snotty ones who seem to deserve a response. They are still kids. Response should be different to a child or adolescent (for that matter, so should the WP responsibility allocation be different for children - but that's nothing I have control over).
Daniel Brandt
I decided that nothing will happen unless he goes on hivemind, so he's on already. If Australia decides to invade Texas on behalf of their darling little 16-year-old, tell the invading troops that I'll be at The Alamo. Someone has to take a stand against this Wikicrap.

The way I read U.S. law, this level of cyber harassment is a federal felony here. But please argue the fine points of the law elsewhere. I was pissed off, and now that he's on hivemind I feel like I've responded appropriately. In other words I feel better, and I'm not mad anymore.

In the meantime, perhaps Mike Godwin would like to explain why the Wikimedia Foundation puts up with misbehaving children. The last I heard, they were supposed to be writing an encyclopedia.

If they ban him, or if Deni leaves Wikipedia, I'll take down the hivemind entry. How much would you like to bet that the Foundation does nothing? I shouldn't have to cold-fax Godwin. He should be asking me for my evidence so that he can follow up on this.
Cobalt
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Thu 7th August 2008, 8:30am) *
..snip..
He should be asking me for my evidence so that he can follow up on this.


Yes, but probably won't.
thekohser
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Thu 7th August 2008, 8:30am) *

If they ban him, or if Deni leaves Wikipedia, I'll take down the hivemind entry.


It appears that Symode09 isn't a very active Wikipedian this summer, anyway.
Kelly Martin
QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 7th August 2008, 8:08am) *
It appears that Symode09 isn't a very active Wikipedian this summer, anyway.
He never was; the guy has no talent for it. He spends almost all of his time trolling the IRC channels.

Sadly, putting him on hivemind will just stroke his pathetic ego even more; this guy does what he does for the attention and giving it to him will just encourage him to find new ways to be a pain in the ass.
LaraLove
QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 7th August 2008, 9:08am) *

QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Thu 7th August 2008, 8:30am) *

If they ban him, or if Deni leaves Wikipedia, I'll take down the hivemind entry.


It appears that Symode09 isn't a very active Wikipedian this summer, anyway.

Busy impersonating people and drafting letters.
Daniel Brandt
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Thu 7th August 2008, 8:21am) *

Sadly, putting him on hivemind will just stroke his pathetic ego even more; this guy does what he does for the attention and giving it to him will just encourage him to find new ways to be a pain in the ass.

No doubt that's true. Every straight-male keyboard addict at age 16 has WarGames on DVD. Who wouldn't want a young Ally Sheedy looking over your shoulder, thinking you're some sort of genius, as you change her grade at school and cause even more mischief in faraway places?

When you are stuck in a Catholic boys boarding school, off-campus publicity is practically a free ticket to losing your virginity.
Alison
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 3:42pm) *

QUOTE(Alison @ Wed 6th August 2008, 4:26pm) *

Damn! wacko.gif
It's not often that I agree with Brandt on something but this guy needs to take responsibility for what he did here. Impersonating Mark Ryan? Sending takedown letters over email? Yup - file the complaint, by all means. Dunno if the Foundation will do anything about it, but they sure need to know about his misrepresentation of them.

Why not an indefinite block on User:Symode09 right now? Why do I have to spend several hours putting all this in a multi-page fax to Godwin? Let it all hang out on WP:ANI and make my life easier. I've already spent hours on August 4 researching this, in order to respond to my DNS provider in a way that was sufficiently convincing so that he agreed that no action was required. And spent more hours today on research. Give Symode09 a chance to respond and then block him if he cannot prove his innocence.

Wikipedia commnity-banned me for off-wikipedia activity (namely Hivemind), so doesn't that mean that you can ban Symode09 for off-wikipedia activity too? Or am I living in a dream world?

P.S. If a mod thinks this can be moved to General Discussion so that it's publicly linkable, then I think this would be a good idea. Otherwise it takes a lot of energy to explain the whole thing.

Lemme see ... an indef block for off-wiki activities (check!) ... organized on Wikipedia Review (check!) ... with evidence from none other than Daniel Brandt (check x 100!)

Yeah, I can see that fly, all right dry.gif tongue.gif

I'm loath to let this just slip, by as this guy was incredibly out of order in doing what he did. I'll see this gets to certain peoples' attention and see what can be done here. Neither you, Daniel, nor WMF I daresay, needs this kinda nonsense. Any action, though, is likely to come via me than via WMF for obvious reasons. We'll see ...
Lar
QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 8th August 2008, 1:43am) *

I'm loath to let this just slip, by as this guy was incredibly out of order in doing what he did. I'll see this gets to certain peoples' attention and see what can be done here. Neither you, Daniel, nor WMF I daresay, needs this kinda nonsense. Any action, though, is likely to come via me than via WMF for obvious reasons. We'll see ...

I'm loath to let this slip as well. I made Mike Godwin aware of this thread.
Kelly Martin
Symode/brown cat should be banned from the IRC channels, not merely because of this stupid stunt (that email can honestly be described as nothing other than bearbaiting) but because he's a persistently disruptive and otherwise noncontributing individual. However, he will almost certainly not be banned; Mark Ryan is resistant to the idea (even though several of the junior ops want to ban him) and of course neither King James (Forrester, not Jimbo) nor Duke Sean cannot be bothered to descend from their respective celestial thrones to deal with this responsibly.

The other day there was a "discussion" (if you could call it that) regarding the IRC channel governance. It was basically James and Sean making a rare regal appearance to lecture the IRC regulars on how they (J&S) were doing such a bang-up ob of running the channels and how could they possibly think otherwise. I didn't hang around for much of the show, as it was quite revolting.

Here's a snippet of the conversation I had with Sean on the side during that debacle:
QUOTE
13:16 <ab9rf> see, right now he's claiming to be on almost every day
13:16 <ab9rf> "idling" is not "available"
13:16 <ab9rf> he *never* responds to people
13:16 <ab9rf> i suppose he might respond to his close friends
13:17 <ab9rf> but lots of people have commented on how he is basically inaccessible.
13:18 <seanw> Both of us are e-mailiable.
13:19 <ab9rf> james does not reliably reply to emails either
13:20 <ab9rf> the general sense on the ground is that james is a "absent monarch"
13:20 <ab9rf> which is why there is such a call to remove him
13:20 <seanw> *nods* but that's sort of what we want to be.
13:20 <ab9rf> it's not what your community wants
13:21 <ab9rf> you want to be behind-the-scene kissinger-like manipulators who never have to put it on the line
13:21 <ab9rf> which is probably best for you since it maximizes your power but minimizes your risk and commitment
13:21 <ab9rf> however, it is fundamentally bankrupt because it *fails to do the job*
I think I bolded the most pertinent part of that conversation.
Vicky
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Wed 6th August 2008, 9:18pm) *

I'd ask Taxwoman to spank Deni, but I'd probably be safer asking Deni's parents instead. I don't want to be accused of cybersex with a minor.

What are you accusing me of? I've never laid a finger on a minor.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 8th August 2008, 7:25am) *

QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 8th August 2008, 1:43am) *

I'm loath to let this just slip, by as this guy was incredibly out of order in doing what he did. I'll see this gets to certain peoples' attention and see what can be done here. Neither you, Daniel, nor WMF I daresay, needs this kinda nonsense. Any action, though, is likely to come via me than via WMF for obvious reasons. We'll see ...

I'm loath to let this slip as well. I made Mike Godwin aware of this thread.

Ah, you take the fun out of it. I'd rather let all the good vandalism evidence lie here on WR, green and stinking, but with WP unable to do anything about it, BECAUSE of where it is. And just let that situation continue, as a sign of how screwed-up WP is.

That blog, signed Deni Symonds and symode09, really does have a good list of a lot of ways people can be annoying. I'd rather the kid annoy Godwin some more. smile.gif
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(Taxwoman @ Fri 8th August 2008, 9:15am) *

What are you accusing me of? I've never laid a finger on a minor.

He was trying to mix metaphors, which if you are you, wasn't funny. I'm sure he meant nothing.

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th August 2008, 10:19am) *

Ah, you take the fun out of it. I'd rather let all the good vandalism evidence lie here on WR, green and stinking, but with WP enable to do anything about it, BECAUSE of where it is. And just let that situation continue, as a sign of how screwed-up WP is.

Unable, I think you meant. Or "disabled", lol.

Yes, good idea. And when they inevitably nag about WR, then you can re-read them one of their quasi-eloquent-attempt-at-a-treatise on the beauties of internet free speech. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th August 2008, 10:19am) *

I'd rather the kid annoy Godwin some more. smile.gif
That's a good non-legal means of recourse. Drive Mike Godwin crazy with a live-Wikipedia-teenage-annoying-thing. Put him in the position of living hell if he doesn't react, or having to react to save his sanity. Good idea. rolleyes.gif
Daniel
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Thu 7th August 2008, 12:47pm) *

If he's studying Aussie law, he should 'get' that U.S. law doesn't apply in Perth.


We tried to steal jurisdiction from everyone else (so we could apply our law in our courts), with Dow Jones and Company Inc v Gutnick [2002] HCA 56, but the mere fact that any decision by an Australian court would be utterly pointless in terms of (attempted) enforcement makes using it in most cases useless.

Combine Gutnick with Humane Society International Inc v Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha Ltd [2008] FCA 3 at [19]:

"Further, the majority of the Full Court (Black CJ and Finkelstein J, contra Moore J) stated that considerations of futility of enforcement of any final relief were premature when determining whether or not to exercise discretion to allow service out of the jurisdiction"

...and you get a truly farcical situation.
Daniel Brandt
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Fri 8th August 2008, 8:37am) *

Symode/brown cat should be banned from the IRC channels, not merely because of this stupid stunt (that email can honestly be described as nothing other than bearbaiting) but because he's a persistently disruptive and otherwise noncontributing individual. However, he will almost certainly not be banned; Mark Ryan is resistant to the idea (even though several of the junior ops want to ban him) and of course neither King James (Forrester, not Jimbo) nor Duke Sean cannot be bothered to descend from their respective celestial thrones to deal with this responsibly.

The other day there was a "discussion" (if you could call it that) regarding the IRC channel governance. It was basically James and Sean making a rare regal appearance to lecture the IRC regulars on how they (J&S) were doing such a bang-up ob of running the channels and how could they possibly think otherwise. I didn't hang around for much of the show, as it was quite revolting.

Most of the Wikipedia channels on IRC are made available through Freenode.net. While Freenode has no general policy on whether channel logging is okay or not, if I was running Freenode, I'd make an exception for Wikipedia's public channels on Freenode. This is what I'd do:

Given the fact that Wikipedia is prone to defamation issues, particularly from younger Wikipedia editors, I'd send a letter from Freenode to the Wikimedia Foundation, giving them 30 days to install a permanent, official logbot on the public IRC channels, and make the logs publicly searchable for the previous six months. The logs don't have to be published online, but they must be searchable by the public. That way there's a record of who did what and who said what. This by itself would encourage Wikipedia's IRC users to behave themselves. I'd also stop allowing cloaks for Wikipedians, and instead show the original hostmask when they log in.

These steps would reduce Freenode's legal exposure, and would make Wikipedians somewhat well-behaved if they decide to join public Wikipedia channels hosted by Freenode.
Daniel
By the way, as a follow-up from the previously-linked news story:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/youtub...5971405870.html is the story when the person apologised.

It was authored by AAP and also appeared on rival News.com.au, as opposed to the initial story which was written by a Fairfax reporter.
Rootology
QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Fri 8th August 2008, 10:23am) *

I'd also stop allowing cloaks for Wikipedians, and instead show the original hostmask when they log in.


You know cloaks aren't just for Wikipedia, right? They're a pretty stock/standard feature on IRC in general and freenode volunteers freely give them away.
Daniel Brandt
QUOTE(Daniel @ Fri 8th August 2008, 11:36am) *

By the way, as a follow-up from the previously-linked news story:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/youtub...5971405870.html is the story when the person apologised.

It was authored by AAP and also appeared on rival News.com.au, as opposed to the initial story which was written by a Fairfax reporter.

Thanks for the link. I didn't see it because the original story had "Loop Australia" in it and showed up in my search, but this one didn't.

I like this sentence:
QUOTE
"Everyone does dumb stuff when they are fifteen," Ms Gibson told ABC Radio.

Maybe so, but not everyone apologizes and then does the same thing when they're sixteen, unless they're from Wikipedia!
Lar
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th August 2008, 12:19pm) *

Ah, you take the fun out of it.

Well, they don't call me the "infuriatingly bland one" for nothing. Taking fun out of things is what I'm all about!
Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Rootology @ Fri 8th August 2008, 12:40pm) *
You know cloaks aren't just for Wikipedia, right? They're a pretty stock/standard feature on IRC in general and freenode volunteers freely give them away.
In fact, the extreme difficulty in getting a Wikipedia/Wikimedia cloak relative to the ease of getting one from any of the other recognized groups is one of the reasons why people are calling for Sean and James to be removed as Wikimedia group contacts. Freenode is getting quite tired of complaints about the Wikimedia group contacts, apparently.
LessHorrid vanU
QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 8th August 2008, 8:26pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th August 2008, 12:19pm) *

Ah, you take the fun out of it.

Well, they don't call me the "infuriatingly bland one" for nothing. Taking fun out of things is what I'm all about!


Sadly true; I once made reference to it, and got an email by return demanding a fee of one lemon bon-bon...
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 8th August 2008, 12:26pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th August 2008, 12:19pm) *

Ah, you take the fun out of it.

Well, they don't call me the "infuriatingly bland one" for nothing. Taking fun out of things is what I'm all about!

Well, you take the education about of it, too. If you go and take info from WR and drop it on Godwin's lap, you deny him the educational experience of having everybody refer to something which he can't SEE, until he comes here and looks for himself. WR is not a rat-infested ripening pit for trolls and vandals. It's a rat-infested source of information and useful criticism about WP that you can't get on WP itself. Because WP deletes it, blocks you, and generally pretends to having no problems that can't be solved by a random collection of teen volunteers, a clueless founder with a loss of impulse control, and a dickless lawyer. Lar, you're not helping to fix the place at all by enabling this.
Lar
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th August 2008, 4:02pm) *

QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 8th August 2008, 12:26pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th August 2008, 12:19pm) *

Ah, you take the fun out of it.

Well, they don't call me the "infuriatingly bland one" for nothing. Taking fun out of things is what I'm all about!

Well, you take the education about of it, too. If you go and take info from WR and drop it on Godwin's lap, you deny him the educational experience of having everybody refer to something which he can't SEE, until he comes here and looks for himself. WR is not a rat-infested ripening pit for trolls and vandals. It's a rat-infested source of information and useful criticism about WP that you can't get on WP itself. Because WP deletes it, blocks you, and generally pretends to having no problems that can't be solved by a random collection of teen volunteers, a clueless founder with a loss of impulse control, and a dickless lawyer. Lar, you're not helping to fix the place at all by enabling this.

Point.

You all better banninate me right away then.

I just wasn't clear how Brandt expected the powers that be to do anything about this if they didn't know... he's not really very good at communicating politely from what I've observed, so I was doing him a favour. I really ought to stop doing that I guess.
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