If you wanna do that where people can see it, start a new thread, Horse. At almost 40 pages, this thread is inside baseball.
Please, you realize that many members of the WR audience come from countries where baseball is not played. For those who are unfamiliar with baseball, this video provides an idea of what the sport is all about:
LaraLove
Wed 7th October 2009, 3:38pm
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:54am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:55pm)
Don't bother. No one could technically verify that, but from what I was originally told by Ironholds literally minutes after it happened and then Chip later, the logs are probably not altered. They are, however, more embarrassing and stupid than either of them had suggested to me.
True that. I wonder why then The_undertow refuses to acknowledge stuff that doesn't even matter.
Does he still have your trust? If so, why?
No.
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:55am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:58am)
Yea, I don't find it comparable. He contacted someone's boss and attempted to get him fired. I trusted my best friend to do well with adminship, and he did. So no, I don't see what I did as being far worse.
Hold on -- let me unzip this horse's costume and just get one thing settled, once and for all.
I have NEVER made any public comment that detailed the incident that you are referring to.
<snip>
I have never attempted to get any person fired from their place of employment, nor would I ever dream of attempting such an obnoxious act. My conversation with that "someone's boss" was not planned with the attempt of ending anyone's employment, nor was the question of pursing such action ever raised in the flow of our relatively brief talk.
The conversation in question was very, very different from the versions that have become popular Wikipedia legend. At some point, in the event there is an audience that is willing to listen to what I have to say, I will gladly speak at length. But at this point in time, I am just sick and tired that this garbage is still being recycled.
I will now get back into my horse costume and get ready for my race tomorrow at Belmont Park.
Start a new thread. I would very much like to know what happened. In that you never refuted it (even when the other editor was participating here, right? I could be recalling that incorrectly), it seemed as though you had nothing to refute. Or, perhaps, you just didn't want Horsey's identity known. Either way, give your side. We want to know.
One
Wed 7th October 2009, 3:47pm
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 3:38pm)
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:54am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:55pm)
Don't bother. No one could technically verify that, but from what I was originally told by Ironholds literally minutes after it happened and then Chip later, the logs are probably not altered. They are, however, more embarrassing and stupid than either of them had suggested to me.
True that. I wonder why then The_undertow refuses to acknowledge stuff that doesn't even matter.
I'd be interested to hear Horse's "side of the story", as it were. I do wonder why he didn't bring some big vindicating tale out when the "victim" first went on about it, but given ANI's very nature I can understand why it would've got lost.
A Horse With No Name
Wed 7th October 2009, 3:57pm
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 11:38am)
Start a new thread. I would very much like to know what happened. In that you never refuted it (even when the other editor was participating here, right? I could be recalling that incorrectly), it seemed as though you had nothing to refute. Or, perhaps, you just didn't want Horsey's identity known. Either way, give your side. We want to know.
Lara, you had previously remarked about an inquiry I made to Arbcom relating to the possibility of reversing the official disabling of an earlier Wikipedia account. That is correct -- I made an inquiry and, for the first and only time, I gave an in-depth account of what transpired and the reasons behind what took place. I received word back that the Arbcom people reacted with hostility, particularly in regard to my pointing out some fairly obvious inconsistencies in the other editor's version of the event. My pointing out of the fraying of policy guidelines that resulted in my account being disabled wasn't exactly well-received, either.
My support of Law/TU and both you and GC is based in large part on my own misadventures -- the truth gets kicked aside and mashed up into something very entertaining. I know that neither you nor GC like me and Law doesn't know me, but I do know what injustice looks like and I am not going to be quiet while other people get hurt.
Ultimately, this is all ancient history -- or at least ancient by WP standards. If anyone is curious, I will discuss further in private. If I can determine that there is a serious audience, I will be glad to go forward.
Though, seriously, I doubt anyone cares. This reminds me of the line from the John Wayne film "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance": When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
LaraLove
Wed 7th October 2009, 4:08pm
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 7th October 2009, 11:57am)
I know that neither you nor GC like me . . .
I never had much interaction with you as Ecoleetage, but what little there was was positive. I always liked your horse persona, even when people were asking me why I wasn't offended by some of your comments. In that you had apparently attempted to get someone fired from their job because they didn't support your RFA... that was too much. Because you didn't refute it, it seemed that you had no defense. Wiki-crimes are one thing, but when you bring it into the "real world" and make it personal, that's when it gets scary. It leads one to question what you might do in other situations where someone pissed you off, ya know? If that's not what happened, I'd be relieved to say the least.
So, if you would, pm me your side of the story; although, I think a public thread would be better.
CharlotteWebb
Wed 7th October 2009, 4:20pm
QUOTE(the_undertow @ Wed 7th October 2009, 6:46am)
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Tue 6th October 2009, 7:21am)
QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Tue 6th October 2009, 3:02pm)
ArbCom isn't the community's moral compass...
Unless you mean the tool one uses to draw a perfect circle.
My be the most clever post I have seen, given my username. Nice work.
What? Somebody gets my jokes? I must remember to be more obscure.
QUOTE(the_undertow @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:30am)
I refuse to press 1 for English. Haha. Que te vaya bein, mi amigo. Lo siento. Tengo la culpa, totalmente.
Yeah, appealing a ban via the arbcom-l mailing list is about as productive as calling the LAMC.
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 7th October 2009, 3:29am)
Considering the article is still on Wikipedia, I assume you are prolonging this detour in order to get another view of my left testicle.
Einige mitglieder der arbkom backen ihre kuchen ohne pferdhoden... vielleicht sollten wir ihnen zu erpressen.
Achromatic
Wed 7th October 2009, 4:31pm
QUOTE(Daniel @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:38am)
I really didn't want to post any more of the log than the few lines I did previously, but oh well, here goes:
[12:34] <The_Law> i like AC [12:34] <The_Law> they have been kind to me [12:34] <Ironholds> oh, I'm sure [12:35] <Ironholds> and if this kindness involves, say, them knowing about your new account [12:35] <Ironholds> then they'll have to explain that to the community. Cue more dramah. [12:35] <Ironholds> and if it doesn't, you're just fucked [12:35] <The_Law> you dont think wales knows about this? [12:35] <The_Law> yer clearly mistaken [12:35] <The_Law> however i am more malicious than you. [12:35] <The_Law> try it [12:36] <Ironholds> I'm sure you are. You're missing out two important points, here, though [12:36] <Ironholds> well, three, effectively [12:36] <Ironholds> firstly, if Wales knows about this he again, has to explain to the community [12:36] <Ironholds> secondly, I don't start off malicious. I only become malicious when forced to by some dickwad not acting reasonably [12:37] <Ironholds> thirdly, I have no. fucking. soul. No qualms, no second thoughts. [12:37] <Ironholds> so what you're talking about is somebody who has no qualms about taking this as far as it can go, and by now is in a situation where he's been pushed to the edge anyway. [12:38] <The_Law> brother, try it. the arbs, the wales, the crats, they all know [12:38] <Ironholds> again, they can explain [12:38] <The_Law> but in real life, i'll keep this going [12:38] <Ironholds> whut? [12:38] <The_Law> ask lara or john, i won't stop. i'm funny that way. [12:39] <Ironholds> oh, I know [12:39] <The_Law> do you? [12:39] <Ironholds> I just didn't get the "in real life" comment [12:39] <Ironholds> given that you live thousands of miles away [12:40] <The_Law> one of the benefits i have is unlimited airline usage. [12:40] <Ironholds> ooh, real life threats now? God, I'm terrified [12:40] <Ironholds> if only you knew where I lived! Wait, you do, London! [12:40] <Ironholds> god, only twelve million people there to churn through [12:41] <Ironholds> I'm sure you'll be here lickety-quick [12:41] <The_Law> you realize this is pointless [12:41] <Ironholds> so Arbcom knows that you're Undertow returned, then? Or just that you had a prior account? [12:41] <The_Law> do what you feel you have to do [12:42] <Ironholds> or is it Wales that knows? [12:42] <Ironholds> c'mon there Undertow, don't make me guess! I'm awful at these games [12:42] <Ironholds> five words, first word "I"? [12:42] <The_Law> of course he does. i keep his books [12:42] <The_Law> brother, if you want to drop the dime to AC, do it [12:43] <The_Law> but i have no respect for pussies [12:43] <Ironholds> you seem remarkably self-confident about this. Do they know, not care, or do you just have another sock somewhere? [12:43] <Ironholds> says the man too pussified to start a move discussion [12:43] <The_Law> you really have no idea who you are dealing with [12:43] <The_Law> on wiki or off [12:43] <The_Law> but ill let that pass
Apropos of anything else, am I the only one that noticed that while many of Ironholds lines in the log are prefixed with the 'nonprinting' character code '', not all are? Odd that whatever was logging was inconsistent about that.
No one of consequence
Wed 7th October 2009, 4:40pm
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Wed 7th October 2009, 4:20pm)
Yeah, appealing a ban via the arbcom-l mailing list is as about productive as calling the LAMC.
There have been a number of successful appeals this year. I think that delegating it to 3 people who are specifically responsible for ban appeals works better then broadcasting it to 15 people, each of whom can tell him or herself that it's somebody else's problem.
A Horse With No Name
Wed 7th October 2009, 4:41pm
QUOTE(Achromatic @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:31pm)
QUOTE(Daniel @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:38am)
I really didn't want to post any more of the log than the few lines I did previously, but oh well, here goes:
[12:34] <The_Law> i like AC [12:34] <The_Law> they have been kind to me [12:34] <Ironholds> oh, I'm sure [12:35] <Ironholds> and if this kindness involves, say, them knowing about your new account [12:35] <Ironholds> then they'll have to explain that to the community. Cue more dramah. [12:35] <Ironholds> and if it doesn't, you're just fucked [12:35] <The_Law> you dont think wales knows about this? [12:35] <The_Law> yer clearly mistaken [12:35] <The_Law> however i am more malicious than you. [12:35] <The_Law> try it [12:36] <Ironholds> I'm sure you are. You're missing out two important points, here, though [12:36] <Ironholds> well, three, effectively [12:36] <Ironholds> firstly, if Wales knows about this he again, has to explain to the community [12:36] <Ironholds> secondly, I don't start off malicious. I only become malicious when forced to by some dickwad not acting reasonably [12:37] <Ironholds> thirdly, I have no. fucking. soul. No qualms, no second thoughts. [12:37] <Ironholds> so what you're talking about is somebody who has no qualms about taking this as far as it can go, and by now is in a situation where he's been pushed to the edge anyway. [12:38] <The_Law> brother, try it. the arbs, the wales, the crats, they all know [12:38] <Ironholds> again, they can explain [12:38] <The_Law> but in real life, i'll keep this going [12:38] <Ironholds> whut? [12:38] <The_Law> ask lara or john, i won't stop. i'm funny that way. [12:39] <Ironholds> oh, I know [12:39] <The_Law> do you? [12:39] <Ironholds> I just didn't get the "in real life" comment [12:39] <Ironholds> given that you live thousands of miles away [12:40] <The_Law> one of the benefits i have is unlimited airline usage. [12:40] <Ironholds> ooh, real life threats now? God, I'm terrified [12:40] <Ironholds> if only you knew where I lived! Wait, you do, London! [12:40] <Ironholds> god, only twelve million people there to churn through [12:41] <Ironholds> I'm sure you'll be here lickety-quick [12:41] <The_Law> you realize this is pointless [12:41] <Ironholds> so Arbcom knows that you're Undertow returned, then? Or just that you had a prior account? [12:41] <The_Law> do what you feel you have to do [12:42] <Ironholds> or is it Wales that knows? [12:42] <Ironholds> c'mon there Undertow, don't make me guess! I'm awful at these games [12:42] <Ironholds> five words, first word "I"? [12:42] <The_Law> of course he does. i keep his books [12:42] <The_Law> brother, if you want to drop the dime to AC, do it [12:43] <The_Law> but i have no respect for pussies [12:43] <Ironholds> you seem remarkably self-confident about this. Do they know, not care, or do you just have another sock somewhere? [12:43] <Ironholds> says the man too pussified to start a move discussion [12:43] <The_Law> you really have no idea who you are dealing with [12:43] <The_Law> on wiki or off [12:43] <The_Law> but ill let that pass
Apropos of anything else, am I the only one that noticed that while many of Ironholds lines in the log are prefixed with the 'nonprinting' character code '', not all are? Odd that whatever was logging was inconsistent about that.
I take it that Ironholds will not be performing the Bobby Fuller Four pop classic "I Fought The Law (And The Law Won)?"
carbuncle
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:00pm
I haven't been following the saga as closely as I might have, so would somebody kindly clue me in as to what this means:
QUOTE
[12:42] <Ironholds> or is it Wales that knows? [12:42] <Ironholds> c'mon there Undertow, don't make me guess! I'm awful at these games [12:42] <Ironholds> five words, first word "I"? [12:42] <The_Law> of course he does. i keep his books
Keeps his books?
Sarcasticidealist
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:02pm
QUOTE(carbuncle @ Wed 7th October 2009, 2:00pm)
Keeps his books?
Law/the_undertow is an accountant. I assume he's making a joke about being Jimbo's accountant.
LaraLove
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:05pm
QUOTE(Achromatic @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:31pm)
QUOTE(Daniel @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:38am)
I really didn't want to post any more of the log than the few lines I did previously, but oh well, here goes:
[logs]
Apropos of anything else, am I the only one that noticed that while many of Ironholds lines in the log are prefixed with the 'nonprinting' character code '', not all are? Odd that whatever was logging was inconsistent about that.
Hmm, I hadn't noticed that. I still doubt it's been altered, but that is an interesting point.
Kelly Martin
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:06pm
QUOTE(Casliber @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:27am)
When one is bombarded with 100 emails a day, and has to prioritise things, then obviously certain tasks get left on the backburner.
Sounds like y'all need to find a way to manage your workload better, then. Because the way you're doing it just makes y'all look to be incompetent at best, and maliciously nasty at worst.
But wait, didn't you resign? Why are you still reading the arbcom's emails, then?
trenton
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:06pm
Wow, this all so pathetically hilarious.
Law / undertow kinda reminds me of Mercury / Nonvocal scream. Kinda the same level of maturity, and the same type of transparent lies.
The wikipedia admin corpse certainly seems to have more than it's fair share of mental defectives.
Kelly Martin
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:08pm
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:05pm)
QUOTE(Achromatic @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:31pm)
Apropos of anything else, am I the only one that noticed that while many of Ironholds lines in the log are prefixed with the 'nonprinting' character code '', not all are? Odd that whatever was logging was inconsistent about that.
Hmm, I hadn't noticed that. I still doubt it's been altered, but that is an interesting point.
Could indicate that those lines were colored or highlighted for some reason. What client was used to write these logs? mIRC?
Abd
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:09pm
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:54am)
I wonder why then The_undertow refuses to acknowledge stuff that doesn't even matter.
Context is everything, Luke. When the context is combat, people will do or say anything, literally, in real life they will chop babies to pieces, and simply not saying something ("refuses to acknowledge") is saying nothing. If it "doesn't even matter," why, then, is Law being badgered, with demands that he respond?
Yeah, that log is embarrassing. Luke, I'm not sure there is any value in communication with Law, it may be that, for him, the best thing is to move on with his life, hopefully with some lessons learned, but he did trust you at one time, almost certainly. On a human level, if you care about that, I'd recommend directly communicating with him, see if you can find an agreement. If you need a facilitator, find one, I'd serve confidentially. It's this public show that's such a problem, and I say this here, instead of privately, because that is the point I most want to make. Wikipedia turns small disagreements into huge battles and large disagreements into impossible snarled traffic jams.
One of the worst aspects of this affair has been an impeachment of confidential communication with arbitrators, accompanied with the argument that "friendship" should have no place in Wikipedia process, which makes "the project" into an inhuman monster that eats the humanity of the participants.
In reality, there is no project, it doesn't objectively exist, it's a fantasy, and the eating is done by those who immerse themselves in this fantasy. There is only the collective activity of the community, and when you have a community of humans that disallows their humanity, you have what, in real life, can become Cambodia or other places where ideals, apparently noble goals, were raised above human connection, leading to conditions much worse than mere selfishness.
Friday
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:17pm
After reading that alleged log.. All I can say is wow. This is really how this dude behaves? If those logs are legit, clearly this person has not gotten over their behavioral issues. He's what you'd call a high-drama personality, and anyone with an ounce of sense avoids people like that.
A Horse With No Name
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:29pm
QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:09pm)
In reality, there is no project, it doesn't objectively exist, it's a fantasy, and the eating is done by those who immerse themselves in this fantasy.
Phooey, that's not my idea of a fantasy!
This is my idea of a fantasy:
carbuncle
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:30pm
QUOTE(Friday @ Wed 7th October 2009, 5:17pm)
After reading that alleged log.. All I can say is wow. This is really how this dude behaves? If those logs are legit, clearly this person has not gotten over their behavioral issues. He's what you'd call a high-drama personality, and anyone with an ounce of sense avoids people like that.
I think I would apply that to both parties.
Deodand
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:34pm
Friday: Attitude displayed in the full log does rather worry me. Switching from "I'm a well-adjusted person" in #wikipedia-en to "I'm a fucking maniac" and then on to a personality best described as "emo kid" at the end.
Others: afaik it's mIRC, yes. When I've /versioned him in #wikipedia-en (one occasionally gets bored, surprise surprise) it's been mIRC. No reason to suggest he's randomly switched for a single convo. I'm not a big logging person (I don't keep them myself) so I have no idea if the little screwy characters are normal or not. Anyone better qualified than I to comment?
One
Wed 7th October 2009, 5:38pm
QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 7th October 2009, 5:09pm)
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:54am)
I wonder why then The_undertow refuses to acknowledge stuff that doesn't even matter.
Context is everything, Luke. When the context is combat, people will do or say anything, literally, in real life they will chop babies to pieces, and simply not saying something ("refuses to acknowledge") is saying nothing. If it "doesn't even matter," why, then, is Law being badgered, with demands that he respond?
Dunno, because it was clear to me that the Jimbo comment was a joke/idle intimidation. Rather than admit that he said a lot of stupid things in the IRC chat, he attacked Daniel and made assertions that it's a fake--even though many other people (including LaraLove) know better. I can't explain why some people are brittle--they just are.
Oh, and Law didn't trust me with anything, Abd. His first message to me contained a lie, and he played dumb about it until he realized that Casliber had been significantly more honest than he was. He's repeatedly attacked me here, and until he drops all of his lies about me, I don't want to speak to him in any private forum.
LaraLove
Wed 7th October 2009, 6:03pm
QUOTE(Deodand @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:34pm)
Friday: Attitude displayed in the full log does rather worry me. Switching from "I'm a well-adjusted person" in #wikipedia-en to "I'm a fucking maniac" and then on to a personality best described as "emo kid" at the end.
Others: afaik it's mIRC, yes. When I've /versioned him in #wikipedia-en (one occasionally gets bored, surprise surprise) it's been mIRC. No reason to suggest he's randomly switched for a single convo. I'm not a big logging person (I don't keep them myself) so I have no idea if the little screwy characters are normal or not. Anyone better qualified than I to comment?
Chatzilla doesn't do that. Logs I've seen from whatever that Mac IRC client is also don't do that.
Chip had been drinking at the time that shamefulness occurred. A lot of boys will be boys immaturity all around. I don't know why he's claiming the logs are forged, though. I asked him to come answer Luke's question. I read the new posts this morning and then asked him to walk away from all of it and not turn back.
This whole thing is a mess and it just keeps getting messier.
Random832
Wed 7th October 2009, 6:25pm
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 7th October 2009, 5:06pm)
QUOTE(Casliber @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:27am)
When one is bombarded with 100 emails a day, and has to prioritise things, then obviously certain tasks get left on the backburner.
But wait, didn't you resign? Why are you still reading the arbcom's emails, then?
Is there any reason he should believe that the volume of material sent to the list has significantly changed since his recent resignation?
Abd
Wed 7th October 2009, 6:28pm
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:29pm)
QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:09pm)
In reality, there is no project, it doesn't objectively exist, it's a fantasy, and the eating is done by those who immerse themselves in this fantasy.
Phooey, that's not my idea of a fantasy!
This is my idea of a fantasy:
Not much different, as far as I can tell, only the mud on Wikipedia is more like an avalanche of shit. You can become accustomed to anything.
Abd: The avalanche of shit in this case stinks. Arbitrators: Abd has failed to prove his allegations, There Is No Smell.
Good Cop Arbitrator: Abd, what have you learned from this, what would you do differently? Abd: I'd point out the smell more quickly, if permitted by my mentor, so that the mess can be cleaned up before it spreads. Arbitrators: He hasn't learned his lesson, it is Not Permitted to mention the -- what was it he said? Never mind, doesn't matter, ban him!
Good Cop Arbitrator: I don't necessarily agree with this ban, but since some perfectly clean and uninvolved editors may be offended by the allegations in this case, I'm blanking the case pages and the evidence files. Screaming Mob: No! Yes! Never! Now! Resign! Conspiracy! Delete! Revert! AN/I! Look! Law is a sock puppet! Who knew? When? You! Him! Her! Them! Wrong! Lies! Throw them all out! Humiliate them!
Bad dream! It's over now. The radiation detectors should arrive from France by the beginning of next week, and I need to order palladium chloride and deuterium oxide and there are hundreds of details to work out. It's easier to explain this to my kids than that "encyclopedia project." At least I'll make some money at this, I expect, though probably not much.
I'm preferring real knowledge to tertiary reporting of secondary reporting of primary reporting of knowledge, direct experience to dreaming about dreaming about someone else's experience, who said what to whom, when? And what did it all mean?
All I can say about it now is, thanks, ArbComm, for being so collectively stupid. Sincerely. If you'd been a little smarter, if you had listened to Carcharoth or bainer, I might still be trapped by my sense of obligation, sucking me back into the maelstrom, and a "little smarter" isn't enough to actually address the problems so that the community becomes functional.
I've taken this thread off my "subscription list" here. Wikipedia is addicting because there is always something to distract, to react to. Same here.
GlassBeadGame
Wed 7th October 2009, 6:31pm
QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:28pm)
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:29pm)
QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:09pm)
In reality, there is no project, it doesn't objectively exist, it's a fantasy, and the eating is done by those who immerse themselves in this fantasy.
Phooey, that's not my idea of a fantasy!
This is my idea of a fantasy:
Not much different, as far as I can tell, only the mud on Wikipedia is more like an avalanche of shit. You can become accustomed to anything.
Abd: The avalanche of shit in this case stinks. Arbitrators: Abd has failed to prove his allegations, There Is No Smell.
Good Cop Arbitrator: Abd, what have you learned from this, what would you do differently? Abd: I'd point out the smell more quickly, if permitted by my mentor, so that the mess can be cleaned up before it spreads. Arbitrators: He hasn't learned his lesson, it is Not Permitted to mention the -- what was it he said? Never mind, doesn't matter, ban him!
Good Cop Arbitrator: I don't necessarily agree with this ban, but since some perfectly clean and uninvolved editors may be offended by the allegations in this case, I'm blanking the case pages and the evidence files. Screaming Mob: No! Yes! Never! Now! Resign! Conspiracy! Delete! Revert! AN/I! Look! Law is a sock puppet! Who knew? When? You! Him! Her! Them! Wrong! Lies! Throw them all out! Humiliate them!
Bad dream! It's over now. The radiation detectors should arrive from France by the beginning of next week, and I need to order palladium chloride and deuterium oxide and there are hundreds of details to work out. It's easier to explain this to my kids than that "encyclopedia project." At least I'll make some money at this, I expect, though probably not much.
I'm preferring real knowledge to tertiary reporting of secondary reporting of primary reporting of knowledge, direct experience to dreaming about dreaming about someone else's experience, who said what to whom, when? And what did it all mean?
All I can say about it now is, thanks, ArbComm, for being so collectively stupid. Sincerely. If you'd been a little smarter, if you had listened to Carcharoth or bainer, I might still be trapped by my sense of obligation, sucking me back into the maelstrom, and a "little smarter" isn't enough to actually address the problems so that the community becomes functional.
I've taken this thread off my "subscription list" here. Wikipedia is addicting because there is always something to distract, to react to. Same here.
I guess the Noble Prize season is always a tough time of the year...
A Horse With No Name
Wed 7th October 2009, 6:34pm
QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 7th October 2009, 2:28pm)
Not much different, as far as I can tell
Hmmm...Abd cannot tell the difference between Ann-Margret and the average arbitrator. Is there an optometrist in the house?
Achromatic
Wed 7th October 2009, 6:38pm
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 7th October 2009, 10:08am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:05pm)
QUOTE(Achromatic @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:31pm)
Apropos of anything else, am I the only one that noticed that while many of Ironholds lines in the log are prefixed with the 'nonprinting' character code '', not all are? Odd that whatever was logging was inconsistent about that.
Hmm, I hadn't noticed that. I still doubt it's been altered, but that is an interesting point.
Could indicate that those lines were colored or highlighted for some reason. What client was used to write these logs? mIRC?
Absolutely possible, though what's of interest to me is that they're the only lines that specifically make claims of a new account, and (though I'm hardly qualified to know what would be worthy of highlighting to the person where the log originated) nothing in those lines seems worthy of highlight (except 'drama', we all know how WPers love drama...).
ObDisclaimer: I have not formed an opinion on this entire mess, either way.
I respect Lara's decision to stand by her friend, though I do disagree with some elements of how she chose to do it. No more, no less. Nothing that hasn't been discussed to death already.
Random832
Wed 7th October 2009, 7:19pm
The character is the IRC code for color (not relevant to text that appears outside a message, but in theory some IRC clients may use it internally for formatting, or include it when copying to the clipboard to allow easy pasting of logs to IRC itself.). When it appears by itself (not followed by a number), it changes the color state back to the default.
I have no idea what this means beyond this, or why it would appear on some but not all of the lines (especially as there are no color codes in the text itself)
Noroton
Wed 7th October 2009, 7:52pm
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Tue 6th October 2009, 11:29pm)
QUOTE(Noroton @ Tue 6th October 2009, 8:26pm)
First you encourage someone here to post, then don't lift a finger so that the people who took you up on it will have wasted their time.
Agree that there's no haste, prepared to wait for clarification. Skomorokh, barbarian 01:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
That guy thinks it should probably be deleted, I guess as some kind of copyvio. Granted, Lar disagrees. I certainly wouldn't lift a finger either way.
And it wasn't looking at your testicle but crushing it that I was joking about. Get the joke right.
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 2:03pm)
I read the new posts this morning and then asked him to walk away from all of it and not turn back.
DAMN good advice.
QUOTE(carbuncle @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:30pm)
QUOTE(Friday @ Wed 7th October 2009, 5:17pm)
After reading that alleged log.. All I can say is wow. This is really how this dude behaves? If those logs are legit, clearly this person has not gotten over their behavioral issues. He's what you'd call a high-drama personality, and anyone with an ounce of sense avoids people like that.
I think I would apply that to both parties.
Yeah, if that means undertow (one party), Ironholds and Daniel (the other party).
And yeah, part of that needs to be removed by mods.
Casliber
Wed 7th October 2009, 8:03pm
QUOTE(Random832 @ Thu 8th October 2009, 5:25am)
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 7th October 2009, 5:06pm)
QUOTE(Casliber @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:27am)
When one is bombarded with 100 emails a day, and has to prioritise things, then obviously certain tasks get left on the backburner.
But wait, didn't you resign? Why are you still reading the arbcom's emails, then?
Is there any reason he should believe that the volume of material sent to the list has significantly changed since his recent resignation?
Precisely. I asked to be unsubscribed from the arb- and func- list straight after posting that I was over and out on the arbcom noticeboard and thus have not received emails since
A Horse With No Name
Wed 7th October 2009, 8:17pm
QUOTE(Noroton @ Wed 7th October 2009, 3:52pm)
That guy thinks it should probably be deleted, I guess as some kind of copyvio. Granted, Lar disagrees. I certainly wouldn't lift a finger either way.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. Okay, for the second time: you have my permission to post it. The article is public domain. Happy?
FYI -- I just banged out the article in 20 minutes. I spent more time talking about it than writing it.
QUOTE(Noroton @ Wed 7th October 2009, 3:52pm)
And it wasn't looking at your testicle but crushing it that I was joking about. Get the joke right.
You couldn't crush it -- I am a hard nut to crack.
SB_Johnny
Wed 7th October 2009, 9:45pm
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:06pm)
QUOTE(Casliber @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:27am)
When one is bombarded with 100 emails a day, and has to prioritise things, then obviously certain tasks get left on the backburner.
Sounds like y'all need to find a way to manage your workload better, then. Because the way you're doing it just makes y'all look to be incompetent at best, and maliciously nasty at worst.
But wait, didn't you resign? Why are you still reading the arbcom's emails, then?
Maybe they need another 20 arbs or so. Might help with the whole recluse thing as well, but probably not.
Appleby
Wed 7th October 2009, 10:48pm
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 7th October 2009, 10:45pm)
Might help with the whole recluse thing as well, but probably not.
Unfortunately, ArbCom members tend not to be recluses, at least online. Maybe some are IRL.
Daniel
Wed 7th October 2009, 11:01pm
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 8th October 2009, 3:35am)
QUOTE(Achromatic @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:31pm)
QUOTE(Daniel @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:38am)
I really didn't want to post any more of the log than the few lines I did previously, but oh well, here goes:
[logs]
Apropos of anything else, am I the only one that noticed that while many of Ironholds lines in the log are prefixed with the 'nonprinting' character code '', not all are? Odd that whatever was logging was inconsistent about that.
Hmm, I hadn't noticed that. I still doubt it's been altered, but that is an interesting point.
The logs I had came with an annoying > in front of it (plus the non-breaking character), which for some reason when I copied to this forum changed into a "01". I started manually removing them by hand (ie. deleting both the NBS and the 01), but in the end got terribly bored of doing so, copied it to Textedit, and find-replaced the "01" with nothing. There should be a clear point, about x amount of the way down, where the non-breaking spaces start appearing every time (which is where I started using Textedit); before that point, it'll likely be a mixture of some with NBS and some without, depending on whether I managed to backspace out the NBS when deleting the 01.
Hope this clears it up, and apologies for the confusion.
Achromatic
Wed 7th October 2009, 11:05pm
QUOTE(Daniel @ Wed 7th October 2009, 4:01pm)
The logs I had came with an annoying > in front of it (plus the non-breaking character), which for some reason when I copied to this forum changed into a "01". I started manually removing them by hand (ie. deleting both the NBS and the 01), but in the end got terribly bored of doing so, copied it to Textedit, and find-replaced the "01" with nothing. There should be a clear point, about x amount of the way down, where the non-breaking spaces start appearing.
Hope this clears it up.
WP doesn't do due process, and we don't do good faith All kidding aside, for reference, you may wish in future to consider the "ramifications" of "boredom" when it comes to tidying up logs where there are accusations of context bias, if not outright forgery
Daniel
Wed 7th October 2009, 11:08pm
QUOTE(Achromatic @ Thu 8th October 2009, 9:35am)
WP doesn't do due process, and we don't do good faith All kidding aside, for reference, you may wish in future to consider the "ramifications" of "boredom" when it comes to tidying up logs where there are accusations of context bias, if not outright forgery
"Ramifications" of "mild ocdness", maybe
Further clarification to what I wrote above: the ">"s (and hence the "01"s) were in front of every line written by IH, because they are his logs. They were obviously not in front of what Chip wrote.
It was KillerChihuahua's evidence that appears to have swung it in favor of Lara's desysopping, and if Lara is desysopped, it'll be the first time that a rollback granting helped contribute to someone's desysopping.
There's no acknowledgement whatsoever by ArbCom of Jehochman's appalling behavior at all throughout all of this, nor any mention of him and his friends pushing hard to get their enemies desysopped...and at this rate they'll end up getting away with all of this without even a mention by ArbCom, let alone an admonishment or a desysopping.
Floydsvoid
Thu 8th October 2009, 12:14am
QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 7th October 2009, 1:09pm)
Wikipedia turns small disagreements into huge battles and large disagreements into impossible snarled traffic jams.
Wikipedia is played like a MMORPG but I think the real life emotional intensity there exceeds that of most MMORPGs. I got dibs on eMMORPG.
Emotional investment in online relationships has increased a lot since I was a young buck (actually back then there was no online). We did have Ann Landers and Dear Abbey in the newspapers to titillate our voyeuristic fantasies but that was about it (yeah, we used to get two newspapers a day, morning & afternoon).
What boggles me most is the spark that ignited this entire train wreck. A dispute over renaming some obscure (to me) bio from 3 names to 2? And presumably fix the redirects? Excuse me for not being a WP editor, but was this as big a deal as it escalated into?
Makes me think that some editors will seize any opportunity to stab their so-called opponents in the back.
Meanwhile, save your emotions for real people, not virtual people, and while you're at it, get the fuck off my lawn
The Joy
Thu 8th October 2009, 12:36am
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 11:47am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 3:38pm)
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:54am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Wed 7th October 2009, 12:55pm)
Don't bother. No one could technically verify that, but from what I was originally told by Ironholds literally minutes after it happened and then Chip later, the logs are probably not altered. They are, however, more embarrassing and stupid than either of them had suggested to me.
True that. I wonder why then The_undertow refuses to acknowledge stuff that doesn't even matter.
Mod Note: I see nothing that requires redacting. Could you specify via PM to me or another mod/staff?
Mod Note to All: Given the length of this thead, PMing mods/staff for any requested action would be best rather than asking for mod action within the thread. Thank you for your cooperation. -The Joy
One
Thu 8th October 2009, 1:07am
QUOTE(The Joy @ Thu 8th October 2009, 12:36am)
Mod Note: I see nothing that requires redacting. Could you specify via PM to me or another mod/staff?
Mod Note to All: Given the length of this thead, PMing mods/staff for any requested action would be best rather than asking for mod action within the thread. Thank you for your cooperation. -The Joy
I know, I know. It can only be redacted if it's about mod/staff.
Mr. Mystery
Thu 8th October 2009, 1:18am
Belatedly concur with Daniel. EPIC WIN, totally.
The Joy
Thu 8th October 2009, 1:23am
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 9:07pm)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Thu 8th October 2009, 12:36am)
Mod Note: I see nothing that requires redacting. Could you specify via PM to me or another mod/staff?
Mod Note to All: Given the length of this thead, PMing mods/staff for any requested action would be best rather than asking for mod action within the thread. Thank you for your cooperation. -The Joy
I know, I know. It can only be redacted if it's about mod/staff.
Mod Note: Another mod has redacted the material. Problem solved. -The Joy
Somey
Thu 8th October 2009, 1:27am
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:07pm)
I know, I know. It can only be redacted if it's about mod/staff.
Now, that's just not fair. Not only did we redact the offending material before you posted the above comment, we did it without adding a snarky comment of my own, just so it would get done quicker.
People have to understand that when threads get out of control like this, us mods tend not to read them. This is because we wish to retain some semblance of personal sanity. It's important that member particpating in train-wreck threads like this one understand that, and use the "Report This Post" button rather than simply trust us to do these things on our own, or even in response to posts later in the thread.
Anyway, I'd better get back to the post in question and add that snarky comment...
It was KillerChihuahua's evidence that appears to have swung it in favor of Lara's desysopping, and if Lara is desysopped, it'll be the first time that a rollback granting helped contribute to someone's desysopping.
There's no acknowledgement whatsoever by ArbCom of Jehochman's appalling behavior at all throughout all of this, nor any mention of him and his friends pushing hard to get their enemies desysopped...and at this rate they'll end up getting away with all of this without even a mention by ArbCom, let alone an admonishment or a desysopping.
Arbcom reminds me of a famous Abbott and Costello exchange:
Abbott: Just remember - I'm the boss and you're nothing. Costello: How do you like that -- boss over nothing!
One
Thu 8th October 2009, 2:26am
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 8th October 2009, 1:27am)
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:07pm)
I know, I know. It can only be redacted if it's about mod/staff.
Now, that's just not fair. Not only did we redact the offending material before you posted the above comment, we did it without adding a snarky comment of my own, just so it would get done quicker.
People have to understand that when threads get out of control like this, us mods tend not to read them. This is because we wish to retain some semblance of personal sanity. It's important that member particpating in train-wreck threads like this one understand that, and use the "Report This Post" button rather than simply trust us to do these things on our own, or even in response to posts later in the thread.
Anyway, I'd better get back to the post in question and add that snarky comment...
Thanks. GBG is mensch.
I clicked the link a few minutes before my post and found that it was still there. Glad it was fixed expeditiously.
Somey
Thu 8th October 2009, 2:31am
QUOTE(Ahypori @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:08pm)
It was KillerChihuahua's evidence that appears to have swung it in favor of Lara's desysopping, and if Lara is desysopped, it'll be the first time that a rollback granting helped contribute to someone's desysopping.
I'm having trouble finding the "evidence page" in question - all I'm seeing are a bunch of vituperative comments from Ms. Chihuahua about their all being deceived and betrayed, yada yada yada, plus a little backtracking where she says they should stop using terms like "witch hunt" and "McCarthyism" here, and suggesting that "Watergate" is the more appropriate analogy.
I think we should all be clear on one thing: Despite her past associations, Jennavecia (T-C-L-K-R-D)
is, or rather was, in many ways one of the most conscientious and ethical administrators Wikipedia has ever had. This has little to do with her presumed decision to "value personal friendship over Wikipedia policy," as if such a decision would even be an issue for a sane person. To revoke her admin rights in response to such a trivial situation is just further proof that Wikipedia's dominant core group hasn't really changed significantly in the past 3-4 years, even if the majority of users have somehow managed to develop a more realistic view of Wikipedia's place in the world, and (hopefully) what its problems are.
Did that sound too soap-boxy? If so, sorry.
GlassBeadGame
Thu 8th October 2009, 2:34am
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:26pm)
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 8th October 2009, 1:27am)
QUOTE(One @ Wed 7th October 2009, 8:07pm)
I know, I know. It can only be redacted if it's about mod/staff.
Now, that's just not fair. Not only did we redact the offending material before you posted the above comment, we did it without adding a snarky comment of my own, just so it would get done quicker.
People have to understand that when threads get out of control like this, us mods tend not to read them. This is because we wish to retain some semblance of personal sanity. It's important that member particpating in train-wreck threads like this one understand that, and use the "Report This Post" button rather than simply trust us to do these things on our own, or even in response to posts later in the thread.
Anyway, I'd better get back to the post in question and add that snarky comment...
Thanks. GBG is mensch.
I clicked the link a few minutes before my post and found that it was still there. Glad it was fixed expeditiously.
Well, remember this is just a thread about Wikipedians doing Wikipedian shit. I thought that this was some other much more significant "Daniel" until someone disabused me. So, I guess we will never know if I'd extend the same courtesy to this Wikipedian guy.
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