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Wikipedia Review > Wikimedia Discussion > Bureaucracy
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MZMcBride
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Tue 15th November 2011, 5:22am) *
QUOTE(MZMcBride @ Mon 14th November 2011, 5:55pm) *
I find it amusing that you post with the notion that you have any credibility.
If you should ever accomplish something of value with your life, please let us know. dry.gif
I'm working on creating an account that's an impersonation of a pastor and obsessively posting to a Wikipedia criticism Web site. With any luck, I'll have accomplished great things in short order.

It's a game, Horsey. You're playing a game. And in this game, you choose to be deceptive and manipulative. That's fine, I suppose. But it's not as though one can simply brush these facts aside when reading any of your comments. You're not here to spread the wiki-sunlight; you're here because you're obsessed with a game.
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(MZMcBride @ Thu 17th November 2011, 8:56am) *
With any luck, I'll have accomplished great things in short order.


Nah, you're doomed to failure. Not the worst thing, though - despite your numerous shortcomings, we still love you. wub.gif
Ottava
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 17th November 2011, 10:20am) *

QUOTE(MZMcBride @ Thu 17th November 2011, 8:56am) *
With any luck, I'll have accomplished great things in short order.


Nah, you're doomed to failure. Not the worst thing, though - despite your numerous shortcomings, we still love you. wub.gif



Horsey - you forgot that McBride has both sock puppets and pretends to be a female (technically, multiple females, and sometimes in the same chat). Most of his criticism of you is actually ironic and shouldn't be taken seriously.
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 17th November 2011, 10:49am) *

Horsey - you forgot that McBride has both sock puppets ...


Actually, I didn't forget - I didn't know, only because I don't pay very much attention to Skinnybones outside of this website. ermm.gif

QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 17th November 2011, 10:49am) *
...and pretends to be a female (technically, multiple females, and sometimes in the same chat).


I wasn't aware that he was a cross-dresser. I guess that's what comes from hanging out with EVula and all of those theatrical types! wink.gif

QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 17th November 2011, 10:49am) *
Most of his criticism of you is actually ironic and shouldn't be taken seriously.


I stopped taking all criticism seriously after the Atlanta Journal-Constitution panned my one and only attempt at writing a musical play. Maybe it would have been a bigger hit if we had cross-dressers in the show! biggrin.gif
thekohser
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 17th November 2011, 10:54am) *

...hanging out with EVula...


I thought we all decided that mons pubis was the correct term?
mbz1
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 17th November 2011, 1:43pm) *



3. Arbcom was specifically asked by the "community" whether they could answer a simple yes-or-no question on whether they were aware that Law was a sockpuppet. Half of Arbcom refused to answer a simple yes-or-no question and Risker even tried to censor that aspect of the discussion.




Not only members of govcom, but even regular administrators have difficulties in answering simple yes-or-no questions.

For example gwen gale often responds to canvassing. she blocked me while responding to canvassing.
For almost a year I kept asking wikipedia administrators including members of govcom a simple yes-or-no question: was gwen gale responding to canvassing, when she blocked me.
It was like a game. I was having fun, watching how different administrators were trying to avoid a direct response:

Here's I asked EdJohnston a direct question:
QUOTE
Please help me to understand why this message is not canvasing, and I will apologize for naming it this way.

In response I got a general explanation about canvassing
QUOTE
Admins ought to be uncanvassable. Any admin who gets an improper request on their talk page should not take the proposed action. If they do, a question may be raised as to their fitness to be an admin. So the concept of 'canvassing an admin' is rather backwards.

After that I asked one more time, if I should apologize to gwen for saying she responded to canvassing, but I got no response at all.

It took me almost a year to find an honest and unafraid administrator, who gave me a direct response: Yes, gwen gale was responding to canvassing, and she should not have been the one
to block you.

How much more fun editing wikipedia could have been, if there were more honest, decent and unafraid administrators!
MZMcBride
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 17th November 2011, 10:20am) *
QUOTE(MZMcBride @ Thu 17th November 2011, 8:56am) *
With any luck, I'll have accomplished great things in short order.
Nah, you're doomed to failure. Not the worst thing, though - despite your numerous shortcomings, we still love you. wub.gif
Love you more. <3
EricBarbour
Image
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(MZMcBride @ Thu 17th November 2011, 6:38pm) *
Love you more. <3


Is that supposed to be your heart or your testicles? ermm.gif
Peter Damian
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 17th November 2011, 1:43pm) *

QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Thu 17th November 2011, 5:55am) *


A couple of things were missing from that account:

1. Ironholds was the one who outed Law via an IRC chat.

2. Six weeks prior to this mess blowing up, Keegan had emailed arbitrator John Vandenberg stating that Law was a sockpuppet. JVB claimed that he didn't read the email, though almost nobody believes that statement.

3. Arbcom was specifically asked by the "community" whether they could answer a simple yes-or-no question on whether they were aware that Law was a sockpuppet. Half of Arbcom refused to answer a simple yes-or-no question and Risker even tried to censor that aspect of the discussion.

Arbcom has no problems with sockpuppets, as long as the puppeteers are friends or members of the committee.


Thanks. Do you have any dates for the off-wiki bits. When was the IRC chat?

[edit] Just found this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=317444073 09:37, 2 October 2009 John Vandenberg.

QUOTE
It was brought to my attention this morning, about 9 hours ago, that a functionary had privately informed me on August 21 about the connection between Law and The undertow. The email that I received, which was sent to the audit subcommittee this morning and will be send to arbcom-l shortly, did not spell out the connection explicitly, and I can't be certain that I had even read the email until this morning. The day the original email arrived was the due date for the ERA submission for which I was responsible. My apologies for adding to the recent confusion, especially to the functionary who believed that they had elevated the matter to the committee appropriately. I dropped the ball, and didn't go back to pick it up once I had more time on my hands. However I never "knew" of the connection, nor have I ever been on friendly terms with either of these accounts. My interaction is limited to actioning an unrelated oversight request from Law, and possibly communications with The undertow on IRC prior to the desysop (I don't have logs). As a result of my position in this matter being complicated by this, I will recuse from any further involvement. If this, or any other error on my part, has resulted in a loss of confidence, I will be happy to submit to a re-election. (see also my recall pledge) John Vandenberg (chat) 09:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


And here is the poll of Arbitrators http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...n_4_days_ago.3F

Corrrect, half of them refused to answer.

Note the comment here

QUOTE

The work that the Committee does in private is done so because it is not appropriate for public viewing. Simple. AGK 20:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...John_Vandenberg



AGK is currently a candidate for this years elections. Obviously he has been in training for this.
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sat 19th November 2011, 2:22pm) *

Thanks. Do you have any dates for the off-wiki bits. When was the IRC chat?


Wasn't the text of the Ironholds/Law-Undertown IRC chat reprinted on WR?

QUOTE

title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=317444073]http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=317444073[/url] 09:37, 2 October 2009 John Vandenberg.

It was brought to my attention this morning, about 9 hours ago, that a functionary had privately informed me on August 21 about the connection between Law and The undertow. The email that I received, which was sent to the audit subcommittee this morning and will be send to arbcom-l shortly, did not spell out the connection explicitly, and I can't be certain that I had even read the email until this morning.


It was Keegan who contacted JVB - and I seem to remember Keegan specifically stating that the connection was explicitly spelled out. However, I don't know why Keegan only contacted JVB and not the full committee.
jayvdb
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 20th November 2011, 12:14am) *

QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sat 19th November 2011, 2:22pm) *

Thanks. Do you have any dates for the off-wiki bits. When was the IRC chat?


Wasn't the text of the Ironholds/Law-Undertown IRC chat reprinted on WR?

QUOTE

title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=317444073]http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=317444073[/url] 09:37, 2 October 2009 John Vandenberg.

It was brought to my attention this morning, about 9 hours ago, that a functionary had privately informed me on August 21 about the connection between Law and The undertow. The email that I received, which was sent to the audit subcommittee this morning and will be send to arbcom-l shortly, did not spell out the connection explicitly, and I can't be certain that I had even read the email until this morning.


It was Keegan who contacted JVB - and I seem to remember Keegan specifically stating that the connection was explicitly spelled out. However, I don't know why Keegan only contacted JVB and not the full committee.

Keegan's email was clear enough, but it did not spell it out. It contained a link to "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Undelete/User:Law" and a small amount of commentary. It didnt indicate what the problem was, but it did indicate that the unspecified problem was a significant one. Had I looked at the link, and tried to see what he was seeing, it would have been obvious what he was referring to. I didnt look at the email at the time. Keegan's email was sent to me on 21 August, which was a hard deadline imposed by the government (You can see it on page 18 of 80). We had a meltdown on the final day and the ARC granted us an extension until Monday, and our team worked most of the weekend. Fun times. I didn't go back to read this email (and thousands of other emails) after my work pressure had subsided.

Keegan explained why he emailed me at the time. Directly emailing arbs can increase efficiency, as it avoids multiple email threads about the same thing, and it ensures that at least one arbitrator feels personally responsible for actioning the email. Giano's advice is pretty good:

QUOTE
My advice is, if you want all the Arbs to know something send it to several of your favourites individualy, asking them each to send it to the mailing list. Don't trust emailing it the mailing list yourself, and I have reasons for saying that, trust me on that one. Human error occur, errors of judgement occur and so does downright deceit. Just cut out the middle-man and hedge your bets. Giano (talk) 21:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

more info in the signpost.
Peter Damian
QUOTE(jayvdb @ Mon 21st November 2011, 6:49am) *

Directly emailing arbs can increase efficiency


Hang on. You've just made a long post about how a direct email to an arb (yourself) got lost in your personal backlog. And then you say "Directly emailing arbs can increase efficiency". Am I missing something?
jayvdb
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Mon 21st November 2011, 6:55am) *

QUOTE(jayvdb @ Mon 21st November 2011, 6:49am) *

Directly emailing arbs can increase efficiency


Hang on. You've just made a long post about how a direct email to an arb (yourself) got lost in your personal backlog. And then you say "Directly emailing arbs can increase efficiency". Am I missing something?
Emailing a single arbitrator and emailing arbcom-l start different processes; there are benefits and failure rates of each, and the 'best' approach will depend on the situation. IMO Keegan chose the best process for that situation, esp. as he is functionary and arbs are not likely to casually ignore or discard an email from a functionary. A personal response is usually quicker and more informative than a collective response.

Giano's advice is to email several arbs, which does help reduce the chance of the arbs neglecting to address an issue.
Peter Damian
QUOTE(jayvdb @ Mon 21st November 2011, 8:46am) *

IMO Keegan chose the best process for that situation, esp. as he is functionary and arbs are not likely to casually ignore or discard an email from a functionary.


Sadly, not best enough.
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Mon 21st November 2011, 1:55am) *

QUOTE(jayvdb @ Mon 21st November 2011, 6:49am) *

Directly emailing arbs can increase efficiency


Hang on. You've just made a long post about how a direct email to an arb (yourself) got lost in your personal backlog. And then you say "Directly emailing arbs can increase efficiency". Am I missing something?


No, Petey. What this carousel ride is telling us is that:

1. Arbitrators condone sockpuppetry among their ranks and their friends. You will notice that none of the arbitrators that troll WR have said anything about Iridiscent's admission of creating sockpuppet accounts for the sole purpose of harassing another editor. And, again, if any of the arbitrators want to see the original unedited email where Iri makes this statement, I will be glad to send it to them.

2. Arbitrators do not want to be publicly questioned about their judgment.

3. Arbitrators who are shown to screw up their work will not resign, despite evidence that they are ill-equipped for this volunteer activity.
AGK
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sat 19th November 2011, 7:22pm) *

QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Thu 17th November 2011, 5:55am) *


QUOTE

The work that the Committee does in private is done so because it is not appropriate for public viewing. Simple. AGK 20:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...John_Vandenberg



AGK is currently a candidate for this years elections. Obviously he has been in training for this.


I moved in my candidacy for ArbCom to conduct its proceedings in public, either on a non-private mailing list or an on-wiki discussion page - and retain its private list only for matters it needs to discuss in confidence. Heaven forbid I change my views, eh?

PS Sorry if the formatting is messed up in this reply. I think I have a minor seizure whenever I have to use a website that doesn't demand lots of confusing wikicode…

fixed, I think - SBJ
EricBarbour
QUOTE(AGK @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:16pm) *

I moved in my candidacy for ArbCom to conduct its proceedings in public, either on a non-private mailing list or an on-wiki discussion page - and retain its private list only for matters it needs to discuss in confidence. Heaven forbid I change my views, eh?

PS Sorry if the formatting is messed up in this reply. I think I have a minor seizure whenever I have to use a website that doesn't demand lots of confusing wikicode…

Well well, here's AGK, one of the admins most likely to indef-block someone for being a "sock".
And you're a Catholic school product, too. Why am I not surprised?

I'd like to stuff a sock in your mouth, sir. Preferably a smelly one.
Ottava
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 10:22pm) *

QUOTE(AGK @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:16pm) *

I moved in my candidacy for ArbCom to conduct its proceedings in public, either on a non-private mailing list or an on-wiki discussion page - and retain its private list only for matters it needs to discuss in confidence. Heaven forbid I change my views, eh?

PS Sorry if the formatting is messed up in this reply. I think I have a minor seizure whenever I have to use a website that doesn't demand lots of confusing wikicode…

Well well, here's AGK, one of the admins most likely to indef-block someone for being a "sock".
And you're a Catholic school product, too. Why am I not surprised?

I'd like to stuff a sock in your mouth, sir. Preferably a smelly one.



Hey, what is wrong for going to Catholic school and wanting to get rid of socks? angry.gif
AGK
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Thu 24th November 2011, 3:22am) *

QUOTE(AGK @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:16pm) *

I moved in my candidacy for ArbCom to conduct its proceedings in public, either on a non-private mailing list or an on-wiki discussion page - and retain its private list only for matters it needs to discuss in confidence. Heaven forbid I change my views, eh?

PS Sorry if the formatting is messed up in this reply. I think I have a minor seizure whenever I have to use a website that doesn't demand lots of confusing wikicode…

Well well, here's AGK, one of the admins most likely to indef-block someone for being a "sock".
And you're a Catholic school product, too. Why am I not surprised?

I'd like to stuff a sock in your mouth, sir. Preferably a smelly one.


I would respond in kind, but I don't have an irrational hatred for people on the internet who I've never met. I occasionally enjoy logging on here and reading well-founded criticism of the WMF projects, but I am perpetually disappointed when, a few posts in, I encounter somebody who isn't doing much else but sharpening their metal-implement-commonly-used-for-chopping-wood. It's so sad.
Vigilant
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 4:07am) *

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 10:22pm) *

QUOTE(AGK @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:16pm) *

I moved in my candidacy for ArbCom to conduct its proceedings in public, either on a non-private mailing list or an on-wiki discussion page - and retain its private list only for matters it needs to discuss in confidence. Heaven forbid I change my views, eh?

PS Sorry if the formatting is messed up in this reply. I think I have a minor seizure whenever I have to use a website that doesn't demand lots of confusing wikicode…

Well well, here's AGK, one of the admins most likely to indef-block someone for being a "sock".
And you're a Catholic school product, too. Why am I not surprised?

I'd like to stuff a sock in your mouth, sir. Preferably a smelly one.



Hey, what is wrong for going to Catholic school and wanting to get rid of socks? angry.gif

Nothing other than that they tend, as a group, to be humorless asshats with a penchant for moral pontificating with their feet of clay.
SarekOfVulcan
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Mon 14th November 2011, 3:43pm) *

QUOTE

Eva Destruction Re:Good luck, Sat 27th November 2010, 12:43am
I'm a bit uncomfortable that some people seem to be making me out to be some kind of knight riding to Wikipedia's rescue, since my role will probably boil down to "make the occasional comment so I don't appear totally inactive, and keep the seat occupied to stop Sarek getting ideas".



Well, geez, I didn't have ideas, since I'm not generally that masochistic, but now...
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