Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination. In the modern English language, the term "racism" is used predominantly as a pejorative epithet. It is applied especially to the practice or advocacy of racial discrimination of a pernicious nature (i.e. which harms particular groups of people), and which is often justified by recourse to racial stereotyping or pseudo-science. Racism is popularly associated with various activities that are illegal or commonly considered harmful, such as extremism, hatred, xenophobia, (malignant or forced) exploitation, separatism, racial supremacy, mass murder (for the purpose of genocide), genocide denial, vigilantism (hate crimes, terrorism), etc.

It's very obvious sometimes that certain articles were written by the subjects being covered, who do their best to make racism and even neo-nazism seem totally rational by hiding it behind euphemisms or less "offensive" words ("white nationalist" as opposed to racist.)

If I were a neonazi this would be exactly the article I would write.

Nah, it isn't conspiratorial enough. It needs info on the "Jewish Declaration of War," how Poland just might have been a threat to Germany, how the USSR wanted to launch an invasion of Europe from Poland to Spain which Hitler stopped dead in its tracks, how [insert random high-ranking Nazi officials] were bastardizing Hitler's brilliant policies on the war effort and thus bringing harm to it, and so on.

Finally it'd need to claim that either Hitler actually wanted to save the Jews and that [insert Nazi officials] subverted this process (followed by citing D. Irving), or simply have a quasi-weasel way of getting out of this like "[insert Jewish academics] claim that the German Reich murdered millions of Jews and [insert], but these claims are disputed by [insert some Holocaust deniers and/or Neo-Nazi websites.]"

Then it'd look like a Neo-Nazi article, whereas as it stands it's just lame.

Nah, it isn't conspiratorial enough. It needs info on the "Jewish Declaration of War," how Poland just might have been a threat to Germany, how the USSR wanted to launch an invasion of Europe from Poland to Spain which Hitler stopped dead in its tracks, how [insert random high-ranking Nazi officials] were bastardizing Hitler's brilliant policies on the war effort and thus bringing harm to it, and so on.

Finally it'd need to claim that either Hitler actually wanted to save the Jews and that [insert Nazi officials] subverted this process (followed by citing D. Irving), or simply have a quasi-weasel way of getting out of this like "[insert Jewish academics] claim that the German Reich murdered millions of Jews and [insert], but these claims are disputed by [insert some Holocaust deniers and/or Neo-Nazi websites.]"

Then it'd look like a Neo-Nazi article, whereas as it stands it's just lame.

This is the big problem with purely volunteer activities. You only get people working on things they care deeply about. In this case, we've had Polish nationalist contributors wanting to show how badly their country has suffered at everybody's hands. (Not just Germans, but Lithuanians, Jews, Ukrainians and Soviets have kicked the Poles around on this list.) We've had neo-Nazi contributors trying to prove that Germany was surrounded by big bad enemies, so of course the Nazis were justified in invading them. We've had anti-American contributors wanting to show that the USA is (and always has been) worse than almost everyone else in history, even worse than the Soviets (7 massacres by Americans versus 1 by the Soviets.). Meanwhile, no one really cares what the Japanese did in Singapore, or what the Italians did in Yugoslavia. ("Whatever. It was a long time ago.")

Oh, somehow the racists managed to get a separate article for "racial separation" as somehow 'not part of the racist article and so not racist at all' too wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nation_of_Islam#Sources -.-

sourced statement saying "NOI founder Farad Muhammad (W.D. Fard) taught the white race was produced thousands of years ago in a failed laboratory experiment by an evil wizard named Yacub", but most Islam does not actually teach that - That seems rather relevant to the divide to me? --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 07:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

start over with a new article, using neutral sources like The Black Muslims in America, The Nation of Islam: Understanding the Black Muslims, Black Muslim Religion in the Nation of Islam, etc. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

A hate group is a hate group is a hate group, would you suggest to do the same to the klan article? 'Nuff said. As for your sources, they're not even linked to anything, and the titles don't even look remotely neutral. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 05:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I have been avoiding this argument and the reverting on purpose due to how heated this is getting, like I suspect Will Beback has since his last comments above - but I thought someone else should chip in here: There is no difference between racial supremacy and "racial separatism", no different than how racists prefer to call themselves "racialists", I have dealt with people from very racist websites before attempting to push their crap... Sure, the KKK may say they don't want to kill people but just put everyone who doesn't fit their standards on a boat somewhere "separate", but that's still racial supremacism... Do you really really think anyone would agree with you Malik that apartheid is NOT a kind of racial supremacism? Face-sad.svg MLK would be ashamed to have his picture attached to your defending of these kind of people Face-sad.svg "NOI founder Farad Muhammad (W.D. Fard) taught that the white race was produced thousands of years ago in a failed laboratory experiment by an evil wizard named Yacub. (“The Nation of Islam: The Relentless Record of Hate.” Anti-Defamation League (New York):1995. p.3) They state that it is impossible for blacks and whites to co-exist. (“The Nation of Islam: The Relentless Record of Hate.” Anti-Defamation League (New York):1995. p.22)" (the userbox on my page used to be MLK before "the userbox wars" started) --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 05:56, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:COI issue with this article?

"Separatism" is one and the same as supremacy as I said, it is intrinsically connected to a racist viewpoint of the world, I don't see how you could have taken my comments any other way or are choosing to misunderstand... Do you think separatism, apartheid is not racist? Because nearly anyone else would disagree... --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 18:44, 11 February 2012 (UTC)


I can't think of anyone outside the internet who would agree with you there... As well as apartheid, the nazis used to explain away concentration camps to the majority of the populace as "sending Jews away", and then you have all the modern racist organisations constantly talk about "separating" people that don't fit the race they want by "sending them away" too... It's one and the same... Different methods, same ideology --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 12:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

As much as I'd like to get sucked into this debate (not being sarcastic), may I remind you that Wikipedia is not a forum. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 12:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a bit insulting, my point is as I already said before the argument as to whether people calling for separating races because they think they are inferior are racial supremacists, or not, is a red herring when it is racism by definition... You are saying that sources saying they want to divide people up on race cannot be used to prove they are racists, when it is racism by definition... --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 19:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Your inability to distinguish between black supremacy and black separatism astounds me. Talk about common sense! — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:48, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

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White separatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
wikipedia.org/wiki/White separatism
White separatism is a separatist political movement that seeks separate economic ... Samuel T. Francis · Nick Griffin (Current president of the BNP)

Also note the gigantic Bank of America banner in the middle of the article.

In September 2006, the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Anti-Semitism of the British Parliament published the Report of the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism [..] The report states that left-wing activists and Muslim extremists are using criticism of Israel as a "pretext" for antisemitism,(Critics of Israel 'fuelling hatred of British Jews', The Observer, February 3, 2006.) and that the "most worrying discovery" is that antisemitism appears to be entering the mainstream.(MPs deliver anti-Semitism report, BBC News, September 6, 2006.) It argues that anti-Zionism may become antisemitic when it adopts a view of Zionism as a "global force of unlimited power and malevolence throughout history," a definition that "bears no relation to the understanding that most Jews have of the concept: that is, a movement of Jewish national liberation ..." Having re-defined Zionism, the report states, traditional antisemitic motifs of Jewish "conspiratorial power, manipulation and subversion" are often transferred from Jews onto Zionism. The report notes that this is "at the core of the 'New Antisemitism', on which so much has been written," adding that many of those who gave evidence called anti-Zionism "the lingua franca of antisemitic movements."(Report of the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Anti-Semitism, September 2006, p. 22.)

"zionist" is pretty much used as a codeword for "jews" by most racists in the same way as "racialist" instead of racist or in the same way pedophiles call themselves "pederasts" or "boylover"/"girl-lover"...

Is this the WTF? thread? Because that was truly a WTF statement.

While I don't pretend to understand Selina, I would agree that some (many? most?) racists use the word Zionists when they mean Jews -- if that's what she's saying.

She seemed to be saying that when somebody uses the word "Zionist" that they are in fact a racist using that as code for "Jew".

No, that's not what she said. That you choose to think that she did, says more about you than it does about her.

This is how the extreme Zionists got the upper hand--they simply showed up first, and were very aggressive from the start. That tide is starting to turn, as more of their opponents show up and figure out the "rules". And I don't mean the "written policies", I mean the REAL rules.

"zionist" is pretty much used as a codeword for "jews" by most racists

The fact that mentioning "jew" around some people is enough to start them into a rant about "zionists and israel" pretty much says it all.

And where pray tell did this happen?

SOCK SOCK SOCK SOCK SOCK SOCK



I'll talk to Eric, or Nableezy. Pick one.

Anyway Radek, Mr Die, Selina, thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Radek, one of these days we've got to discuss whether it's smart to keep trying to improve Wikipedia. You do realize that by helping, you're making all this subtle neonazi stuff more believable? It's like a perfect breeding ground for them, having normal people around, saying normal things, makes the kids feel safe... and then the racists distort stuff just enough to get their point across.

I already feel bad for pointing out that Bank of America thing.

Yeah, I'm aware that only inept types just go out and be like "Hitler was a genius and the Jews got what was coming to them[1] (source: HITLERWASRIGHT DOT COM)," I was just being humorous.

This does remind me, though, of a criticism all the way back in 2005 that still holds just as much today: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo2.htm#Massacres

Malik Zulu Shabazz, leader of the New Black Panther Party, wrote the forward to a new anti-Semitic book, The Synagogue of Satan (2006) - found that when looking at larouche stuff (who is apparently just as bad)

I don't understand how that is relevant to anything.

The film shows a white student girl who offers her help to Malcolm X and then gets rudely denied. It's actually based on a real-life event about which after leaving NOI Malcolm X regrets, saying "Brother, remember the time that white college girl came into the restaurant - the one who wanted to help the Black Muslims and the whites get together - and I told her there wasn't a ghost of a chance and she went away crying? Well, I've lived to regret that incident. In many parts of the African continent I saw white students helping black people. Something like this kills a lot of argument. I did many things as a Black Muslim that I'm sorry for now. I was a zombie then - like all Black Muslims - I was hypnotized, pointed in a certain direction and told to march. Well, I guess a man's entitled to make a fool of himself if he's ready to pay the cost. It cost me 12 years."

I wanted firsthand views of the African leaders -- their problems are inseparable from ours. The cords of bigotry and prejudice here can be cut with the same blade. We have to keep that blade sharp and share it with one another." Now he was sounding like the old Malcolm: "Strangely enough, listening to leaders like Nasser, Ben Bella, and Nkrumah awakened me to the dangers of racism.

I realized racism isn't just a Black and white problem. It's brought bloodbaths to about every nation on earth at one time or another

Anyway @radek, look at Malik's userpage

Malik why do you use the name Malcom X chose when he joined the racist Nation of Islam organisation, which he later denounced, and was murdered by, then?

They murdered him only two days later.

Because he supports them... wikipediareview.com/?showtopic=36931&view=findpost&p=298721

edit: After Malcom X said that.

I'm not talking about the sources, I'm talking about the words. And I think from Malcom X's words, he'd be pretty sickened to see people defending racist "separatism", as I tried to explain there :|

It's something the neo-nazis know well, if you indoctrinate people when they are young it's hard for them to change their views later

Read the whole post instead of just skimming it then especially the bottom quote :| Unless you're missing the point entirely in which case I just give up

If I chose to name my account, "David Duke", would it mean anything to you?

Malik why do you use the name Malcom X chose when he joined the racist Nation of Islam organisation, which he later denounced, and was murdered by, then?

They murdered him only two days later.

Two days after what?

He left the Nation of Islam on March 8, 1964, and was assassinated on February 21, 1965. By my count, that's 11, almost 12 months.

Read the whole post instead of just skimming it then especially the bottom quote :| Unless you're missing the point entirely in which case I just give up

Selina, I'm afraid you have me confused with somebody else. I'm not a member of the Nation of Islam, nor am I sympathetic toward them -- I just think they deserve the benefit of Wikipedia rules like WP:V and WP:NPOV.

Just a reminder.

A great and thought provoking speech from my MP (who usually is a bit of a twat).

@Malik: "WP:V"? That's not the kind of "common sense" you were talking about before... I don't think asking any normal people outside Wikipedia would classify the BNP or "nation of islam" as "separatist movements" than racist organisations...

A great and thought provoking speech from my MP (who usually is a bit of a twat).